Wisconsin: About to Get Real??

[broken_legs]

Coles:

Over the last 50 years, unions have used their power to gain ridiculous pensions and benefits from the State.

The State is bankrupt, cannot balance the budget

The State Republican majority wants to end legally required collective bargaining which is basically a way for unions to extort whatever they want out of the government at the expense of the majority (taxpayers)

State Democrats flee the state and go hide in Illinois so the Republicans can't pass the bill - Making total farce of process of "democracy"

100,000 union members descend on state capitol for last few weeks..

Republican's finally figure out a way to pass union busting measures anyways without the democrats.

Now this:
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=182012

Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me have decided that we've had enough. We feel that you and the people that support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand for it any longer. So, this is how it's going to happen: I as well as many others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records. We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the message to you since you are so "high" on Koch and have decided that you are now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent. This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won't tell you all of them because that's just no fun. Since we know that you are not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it's necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families and themselves then We Will "get rid of" (in which I mean kill) you. Please understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel that it's worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!

[Canmorite]

Definitely torn on this issue. The unions were willing to cut their pay and contribute more to their pension, but Walker just wanted to end their collective bargaining rights regardless of the financial outcome. That's kinda sad. I highly doubt the whole issue is only about money/balancing the budget.

[BrknFngrs]

I'd love to see almost all unions busted personally; they've outlived their usefulness and they've spread into so many sectors that they have no business being in.

[g-m]

unions were important during the industrial revolution... They should have gone the way of the dodo bird long ago.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[dimi]

WAR ON TERROR!

[kvg]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs
I'd love to see almost all unions busted personally; they've outlived their usefulness and they've spread into so many sectors that they have no business being in.

Originally posted by g-m
unions were important during the industrial revolution... They should have gone the way of the dodo bird long ago.

[SJW]

Wisconsin should separate. See how far they get.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Canmorite
Definitely torn on this issue. The unions were willing to cut their pay and contribute more to their pension, but Walker just wanted to end their collective bargaining rights regardless of the financial outcome. That's kinda sad. I highly doubt the whole issue is only about money/balancing the budget.

I grew up in a town with a big lumber industry. All of the good jobs were at the mill, and they were all union jobs.

The other big industry here was mining... Union Jobs.

The other big industry was CP Rail... Union.


I applied at all these places over and over and over again and never got a job.

All my buddies who's dads worked there? They all got 25$/hr summer jobs back in the 90s. That was ridiculous cash for the time. Meanwhile I worked minimum wage for 5.50/hr and if I was lucky, got called out and dug guard on the fire line for 12$/hr.

Even a couple years ago, I still didn't figure out that Unions are a scam. But now I hate them. They aren't fair to normal non-union workers. They exclude normal people from entire industries, and promote lazy useless workers IMO.

I am totally against any kind of legally mandated unions - This is the collective bargaining that Walker removed. It forces BY LAW, the state or employer to negotiate with the union rep. That is not fair to the employer. The employer has no recourse. It can't fire anyone, can't do anything. Unions are a freaking scourge on the face of the earth.

It's basically you me and everyone else, vs people in unions. They get taxpayer money, while taxpayers get screwed and receive service like the LRT thread shows...

Why the hell should we pay billions of dollars to save the 'oh so crucial' automobile industry in Ontario?

Those idiots get paid full wage of 40$/hr to sit at home when there is no work. It's ridiculous.

Look at the industries that have the most unions - Government (spiraling out of control costs, useless workers, horrible service), Automobile industry (bankrupt, useless)... and the list goes on.

I think we'll see class warfare soon - When governments finally realize that they can't afford unions and start trying to cut back - municipal, local, public, federal whatever unions, things are going to get really ugly, even in Canada.

And this is when the normal people like you and me need to stand up and tell the unions to STFU and take it like a normal tax payer - OR ELSE.

IMHO.

[CUG]

Where do people expect these cuts to come from?

[ZenOps]

Welcome to the Divided States of America!

13 States are on the verge of returning to the Gold Standard (and going back to using paper money as toiletpaper). Others are abolishing unions. Others are on the verge of legalizing marijuana.

I'm surprised noone has pulled a gun out yet. They are 100x better armed than Libya on a per capita basis.

[Ven]

Reading anti union threads always make me laugh. They read like the definition of jealousy itself sometimes. Though there are valid concerns.

I always hope the collective brain trust has enough jam between the ears to disparage between public and private based unions. Yes, $40hr is retarded to pay a private company guy to repeatedly assemble parts on a car. Public sector employees don't get it like that. The process is too public and transparent, at least here it is anyway. I'm no expert but the public sector folks I know make quite a bit less than the equivalent job in the private sector. I regularly report to a provincial department head who is my boss and I have to answer to and I make almost double what he does.

There's terrible unions and great ones, it's a shame to lump them all the same after having worked with so many.

[sexualbanana]

Imo, there is no budget crisis. Walker is using lack of funding as an excuse to bust unions. His goals became obvious when the teacher's union offered to concede on wage givebacks, pensions, and benefits yet still continued to push for the elimination of their right to bargain collectively.

The moment he was sworn in as Governor, Walker passed 4 piece of legislation (after he called a special session of the State Legislature). The net effect? $140 million in business tax breaks.

Not to mention that his latest move, which has essentially taken the union-busting sections of his budget plan out and gotten it passed without the necessary votes, also reaffirms that this has nothing to do with the budget and more to do with ending collective bargaining.

Among the things Walker has passed since he's been sworn in have done nothing but make the budget worse. Included in his budget recovery plan was a bill that cut the State's funding of family planning services, which include contraception, prostate and breast cancer screening. Total amount spent by the State of Wisconsin? $2 million. Great! They've cut $2 million out of the State's spending! But wait, cutting their funding on family planning services will also exclude them from $9 million in federal funding subsidies. Net effect: -$7 million.

Whether you believe in the validity or usefulness of unions or not, Walker's actions at its very core are un-American and not right. Jack Welch, former CEO of GE, made a great point about his dealings with unions and his dealings with union-forming situations when he said that the only effective way to bust a union or stop union formation is to show the workers how little they need it by treating them better. Show them you can provide a suitable environment for them to work in WITHOUT having to pay for a middleman, and thus save everyone's time and money. On top of the that, he also said that at the heart of every union-formation there is a poor manager. Fix the management problems, and you'd be surprised to see how the situation changes.

[Canmorite]

Originally posted by sexualbanana
Imo, there is no budget crisis. Walker is using lack of funding as an excuse to bust unions. His goals became obvious when the teacher's union offered to concede on wage givebacks, pensions, and benefits yet still continued to push for the elimination of their right to bargain collectively.

The moment he was sworn in as Governor, Walker passed 4 piece of legislation (after he called a special session of the State Legislature). The net effect? $140 million in business tax breaks.

Not to mention that his latest move, which has essentially taken the union-busting sections of his budget plan out and gotten it passed without the necessary votes, also reaffirms that this has nothing to do with the budget and more to do with ending collective bargaining.

Among the things Walker has passed since he's been sworn in have done nothing but make the budget worse. Included in his budget recovery plan was a bill that cut the State's funding of family planning services, which include contraception, prostate and breast cancer screening. Total amount spent by the State of Wisconsin? $2 million. Great! They've cut $2 million out of the State's spending! But wait, cutting their funding on family planning services will also exclude them from $9 million in federal funding subsidies. Net effect: -$7 million.

Whether you believe in the validity or usefulness of unions or not, Walker's actions at its very core are un-American and not right. Jack Welch, former CEO of GE, made a great point about his dealings with unions and his dealings with union-forming situations when he said that the only effective way to bust a union or stop union formation is to show the workers how little they need it by treating them better. Show them you can provide a suitable environment for them to work in WITHOUT having to pay for a middleman, and thus save everyone's time and money. On top of the that, he also said that at the heart of every union-formation there is a poor manager. Fix the management problems, and you'd be surprised to see how the situation changes.

This.

I agree with some of what you're saying BrokenLegs, but it just seems like Walker is taking from the middle class to give to the rich...

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Canmorite


This.

I agree with some of what you're saying BrokenLegs, but it just seems like Walker is taking from the middle class to give to the rich...

just curious what u think the giveaway to the rich is in this situation?


edit: DIDN'T READ sbS POST ABOVE WHEN IPOSTED FROM SMARTPHONE EARLIER...


There is some stuff going down in Wisconsin, but the Republicans didn't need the Democrats there, they had a majority vote, the Democrats FLED THE STATE to stop a democraticly elected senate legislature from passing a bill.

The bill would have passed if the democrats were there or not. The only disgraceful thing here is that democrats fled the state to stall a perfectly democratic bill from passing.

Koch borthers - Conspiracy theories - No Doubt there are backroom business deals happening - Just like the same deals that SCREWED taxpayers into paying for 160,000/yr union bus drivers in Wisconsin. Just like the same backroom deals that Liberal and Democrat governments do with their buddies and SCREW OVER THE TAXPAYERS. The fact is government is corrupt. There is no doubt about that. Dem or REPUBLICAN - its still corrupt.


The next fact is that UNIONS ARE CORRUPT. There is no doubt about that. Belly aching about some business deal as an excuse to stop busting the unions is a red herring IMO.

UNIONS GOTTA GO. - Check Getting fixed Now.

BACKROOM BUSINESS DEALS GOTTA GO. - Will Never get fixed - all politicians are corrupt. Start demanding they go to jail and things might change... maybe.


So in summary, maybe this union busting hard ass in Wisconsin isn't a saint, but he's better than the next guy who is going to let the unions continue to rape taxpayers AND let business get sweetheart deals.

[pyroza]

Also, I love that Walker basically said that he wanted the democrats back in the state so he could immediately vote rather than compromise. He's a total puppet of the Koch brothers. All this is accomplishing is the further destruction of the middle class. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by pyroza
Also, I love that Walker basically said that he wanted the democrats back in the state so he could immediately vote rather than compromise. He's a total puppet of the Koch brothers. All this is accomplishing is the further destruction of the middle class. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.

Dude. They had enough republican votes to pass the bill even if all democrats voted no. BUt the democrats LEFT THE STATE and stopped performing their duties as representatives of the people, stalled the legislative process. The vote couldnt take place unless atleast one democrat was present - regardless of what the outcome would have been.

The solution was to find a loophole (like the loophole the democrats used to flee the state and make a mockery of the democratic process) that they were able to pass only the union busting parts of the bill.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by broken_legs


So in summary, maybe this union busting hard ass in Wisconsin isn't a saint, but he's better than the next guy who is going to let the unions continue to rape taxpayers AND let business get sweetheart deals.

I think you've gotten some platforms mixed up.

The Republican platform is usually one that is more business-friendly in the form of corporate tax breaks and high-income personal tax breaks. Effectively, lessening the role of government in the lives of Americans, or so they say. Also included in this is the Wisconsin union-busting, for lack of a better description. The legislation is really aimed at helping businesses cut down on cost by breaking union ties and their right to bargain collectively.

Democrats, on the other hand, are typically the ones calling for higher taxes on corporate and high-income earners. In contrast, they are looking to expand the role of government in the lives of Americans.

Unfortunately, as I've stated before. Republicans seem to have a funny ass-backwards approach to fiscal responsibility by not only cutting state expenditures (state-funded programs), but also passing tax breaks onto business and the top two percent that will lessen the state's tax revenue.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by sexualbanana
[B]

I think you've gotten some platforms mixed up.

[b]

nah, dawg.

i see 2 parties, 2 platforms, and only one result. both parties, by Action, are indistinguishable imo.

under both, unions gain concessions, govt workers get ridiculous benefits (union or not), and corrupt politicians sell off slices of taxpsyers wealth to corporations for campaign money.

heres some commentary i liked
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/burden-pensions-states

[Eibbus]

Heh. I live in Madison right now. Its pretty crazy down here. The unions are one issue... obviously there are advantages and disadvantages to them, but the unions were willing to compromise.

What scares me about the remaining part of the bill is the fact that they can sell off all our utilities to private parties ( aka, financial backers of Walker ) without any sort of bidding process or permission from anyone, and at any price that they feel like.

Meaning all our utilities could potentially be privatized and then price gouged and no one would have any choice but to pay.

The rich get richer.

(1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).

this would allow the state to make no-bid sales, overriding public interest concerns, of heating, cooling or power plants. This rider is just an invitation to corruption, and part of a familiar pattern of selling off state-owned property to fill a budget gap in the short term, with disastrous consequences in the long term.