Simple (hopefully) question about the war in the Middle East

[Cos]

Okay I am in no way a terrorist sympathizer. I just finished watching Restrepo which is about guys on patrol in Afghanistan.

Now if I lived in back country Ab/BC and a country started driving around and chasing terrorists through our roads and my fields I am not so sure I would react much differently then some of the 'resistance'.

I just want to ask, I still, to this day, do not understand why they are in (and still in) afghanistan. Can anyone give me a good reason? If I was sitting at home one day and foreign troops rolled past I would be pretty pissed off too. Maybe even more so than these guys are.

Am I totally bat shit crazy or am I making sense here. This whole mindset and situation confounds me.



edit: I should mention I am not passing judgement on these soldiers. They are tough brave SOB's and they deserve the utmost respect. What I dont understand is the tactic and political motivation overall.

[GTS4tw]

I agree but don't want to get involved in the surely ensuing internet battle. I just wanted to say Restrepo was awesome and everyone should see it

Part 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKQ5wOWsJfs
Part 2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmYaNg4MbY

[Cos]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


I agree but don't want to get involved in the surely ensuing internet battle.

I hope that it doesnt happen into that (and I never meant it to) althought that may have been foolish.

I just really really really do not understand how we actually got here and how we are wasting the lives of these young guys.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Cos


Am I totally bat shit crazy or am I making sense here. This whole mindset and situation confounds me.

This is the first time you had this thought? Seriously? ... wow.

Try not to let popular opinion shape your own - it's full of cognitive dissonance and 'double speak'

You can like soldiers AND be against the war.

In fact, you are really more PRO SOLDIER if you want the war to end.

I see nothing wrong with your viewpoint that people attacking your shit would piss you off. I'm sure that 99.999999% of terrorists agree with you.

[Modelexis]

I don't think any sane person can disagree with you COS.
I would go a step further and say that any violent threat to my life and the lives around me would be met with violence from me right back in full force, no matter what color uniforms these people were wearing or what their passport says.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Modelexis
I don't think any sane person can disagree with you COS.
I would go a step further and say that any violent threat to my life and the lives around me would be met with violence from me right back in full force, no matter what color uniforms these people were wearing or what their passport says.

Yeah, but what if they were from the local DRO? lol


Word of the day: LIBERTY

[Cos]

Originally posted by broken_legs


This is the first time you had this thought? Seriously? ... wow.

Not sure if I will take this as an insult so I wont. I will simply explain I am tired of wondering this quietly. I have wondered this for a long time but doesnt mean I run to the internetz to ask about every thought I have. I would be competing with Stealth for new threads a day record.

Originally posted by Modelexis
I don't think any sane person can disagree with you COS.
I would go a step further and say that any violent threat to my life and the lives around me would be met with violence from me right back in full force, no matter what color uniforms these people were wearing or what their passport says.

Okay. So now can anyone explain to me why we are asking people (who I could easily sharing a beer over) to go to a foreign country and kill people for a reason that escapes me?

(I get that this is a bit of a mental exercise, but why do we allow this to happen to our fellow citizens. I have cousins and high school classmates who have joined the CF in protection of our country and I dont wish this BS on them).


Just to me if you come to my house I will deal with it accordingly using my firearms and training. That being said I wont come to your house to show it.... Just dont get it. And I believe these people (in the movie) are victims of a policy that doesnt understand what they are asking these guys to do.

[Freeskier]

Cos, quit asking questions... just pay your taxes and let others make the big important decisions.

Agree 100%, not that I condone terrorism, but can you blame them for taking up arms against a foreign nation just coming in guns blazing? Hell I know what I'd be doing if it were here.

[whiskas]

If you need a reminder, the USA wanted blood after 9/11. Osama was to blame and Afghanistan was his hideout. So team america: world police packed up to find the big bad wolf in his den. Turns out the big bad wolf was either already dead or just didn't wanna play, so he hid.

A lot of people in Pakistan and that region fucking HATE the US. And guess what! They crossed the border to fight them because its convenient, plus they're in terrain that heavily favors guerrilla warfare!

So now the US was fighting "terrorists", or basically people who otherwise would be herding goats and smoking hookah until the US showed up on their doorstep kicking their dog and using their bathroom. The US started all of this, going in picking a fight and that's what they got.

The real question is why did we (Canada) goto Afghanistan, I don't want my tax dollars going towards fighting some goat herders who probably have never even heard of Canada until we showed up.

I rarely have nice things to say about the conservative party, but they did the right thing by finally putting their foot down and announcing a withdrawal. Assuming it actually does happen this year...

[Seth1968]

Okay. So now can anyone explain to me why we are asking people (who I could easily sharing a beer over) to go to a foreign country and kill people for a reason that escapes me?

The reason is oil.

[ZenOps]

Oil, drugs and guns?

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by Cos
Okay. So now can anyone explain to me why we are asking people (who I could easily sharing a beer over) to go to a foreign country and kill people for a reason that escapes me?

I dunno about you but I'm not asking anyone to do anything.
These decisions are made without public say, without public vote and backed by force.

You have no choice but to fund these decisions that you don't have any say in.

If people in financial trouble wanna get shipped to the middle east to get risk getting their heads blown off, that should be their decision and funded by an entity that has support in the form of donations.
But to put the war on the Canadian national credit card and obligating the next 3 generations to pay it down with interest is the problem.

If people are pro war, all the power to them, they can write a big fat check every month to the government, but no one does this, I wonder why?

Broken: Why do you continue to put down a concept that you have done nothing to dispute?
Do you enjoy casting childish empty statements at people who have not done anything to provoke you?
You need to grow up a bit and realize we aren't on opposite sides of the fence.
You want to reduce government power by 99% and I just want to go to 100%, you and I debating about who is right is really useless, because neither of us is helping either of our preferred outcomes.
Both you and I have a theoretical concept of how we would like things to work, neither of us has ever had a real world example of this in the past, so maybe before you start casting stones at flaws in other theories you should attempt to prove your own.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Cos


Not sure if I will take this as an insult so I wont. I will simply explain I am tired of wondering this quietly. I have wondered this for a long time but doesnt mean I run to the internetz to ask about every thought I have. I would be competing with Stealth for new threads a day record.

Nah man. Just shocking to me. It seemed kind of obvious from the start that the motives for war were totally bogus.

Strange part is that many many people used to have the same opinion as me, then slowly they seemed to change into something closer to "If you question the reasons why, you are unpatriotic" - I blame the media. To see that you are asking the question out loud is awesome, but wow, just wow - that you are only just asking the question now.

Nothing against you personally, just a comment on society in general.

As far as why we are still there? Don't forget about that ultra lucrative pipeline that was built immediately after the war started. Natural resources, strategic geopolitical influence, blah blah blah.

And if you really care, time to get a bumper sticker and start writing letters. People are fucking dying and coming back all screws loose was watching 30mm rounds explode terrorizers and babies.

If you started a petition to do something about the war, i would sign it.


and now for this guy:

Originally posted by Modelexis


Broken: Why do you continue to put down a concept that you have done nothing to dispute?

Nothing huh? lol That's pretty funny dude.

PS: You obviously don't have a sense of humor either. let it go.

[911fever]

Cos:
Enjoy this video. This is my answer to your question:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7358656n

I encourage you to research the atrocities of the Taliban before the US and NATO and many countries invaded Afghanistan. The book is here:
http://www.amazon.com/Thousand-Splen.../dp/1594489505

There was a cover of Time magazine about how a woman in Afghanistan had her face cut up, nose chopped off because she went out in public without a veil. Google it, its incredibly graphic.
People in Afghanistan now can listen to public radio, have the ability to vote, and in some sense, have freedom they never had under the brutal, misogynistic, Taliban rule.

But all of this is just side trails related to the US military and NATO freeing Afghanistan.
You want to know what this whole war is about? It's about the battle against extremist Islam.

Christopher Hitchens is one of my favorite authors for a variety of reasons. He makes a strong, strong argument for the War in Afghanistan and Iraq.
http://www.slate.com/id/2223056/

Another great article, read here:
http://www.slate.com/id/2227227/

"But we don't have the right to forget why we are in Afghanistan and Iraq in the first place: to make up for past crimes of both omission and commission and to help safeguard emergent systems of self-government that have the same deadly enemies as we do and to which, not quite incidentally, we gave our word."

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by 911fever

You want to know what this whole war is about? It's about the battle against extremist Islam.

Cognitive Dissonance Incarnate.

EDIT:

Dissonance is also reduced by justifying, blaming, and denying. It is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.

Experience can clash with expectations, as, for example, with buyer's remorse following the purchase of an expensive item. In a state of dissonance, people may feel surprise,[2] dread, guilt, anger, or embarrassment. People are biased to think of their choices as correct, despite any contrary evidence. This bias gives dissonance theory its predictive power, shedding light on otherwise puzzling irrational and destructive behavior.

[911fever]

Originally posted by broken_legs


Cognitive Dissonance Incarnate.

EDIT:

I wish that I could blame, deny, etc. The reality is, its unfortunate that extremist Islam is the greatest threat to mankind - and only a few countries are willing to challenge it.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by 911fever


I wish that I could blame, deny, etc. The reality is, its unfortunate that extremist Islam is the greatest threat to mankind - and only a few countries are willing to challenge it.

How come the politicians didn't say this was the reason when we went to war?

Oh yeah, thats right. They invented this reason after it turned out there were no WMDs, that Osamma Bin Laden doesn't live in Afghanistan etc...

This is a perfect example is thesis drift, denial, etc... COS has good reasons to question the war. You have tired excuses, and opinions, and your entire premise depends on "They are different than us" - Divide, dehumanize, justify.

[911fever]

Originally posted by broken_legs


How come the politicians didn't say this was the reason when we went to war?

Oh yeah, thats right. They invented this reason after it turned out there were no WMDs, that Osamma Bin Laden doesn't live in Afghanistan etc...

This is a perfect example is thesis drift, denial, etc... COS has good reasons to question the war. You have tired excuses, and opinions, and your entire premise depends on "They are different than us" - Divide, dehumanize, justify.

Something you don't seem to understand very well is logical reasoning.
We're not talking about the War in Iraq and WMD's.
We're talking about the War in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan in 2001 was a complete nightmare. Full of terrorist camps, the destructive and vicious Taliban who encouraged and supported state-sponsored terrorism, Al-Queda, and the ringleader, Osama bin Laden.
The terrorists that attacked the United States on 9/11 all had attended terrorist training camps in Afghanistan. All intelligence and research showed that Afghanistan was the grounds for these disgusting, pathetic, Islamist extremists lived.
This is undisputed, by the left and the right.
Which is why Nato and 48 countries signed on with removing the Taliban from power and destroying all aspects of Al-Qaeda's leadership, bin Laden, and instilling freedom for the Afghani people. Again, read my link above you for what life is like in Afghanistan before the US removed the Taliban from power.

Re-read this and pound it into your head. These are not tired excuses, or blame game. That is your modus operandi, your status quo. That is you. These are facts.
The retribution for the attacks on 9/11 came from within Afghanistan.
The US started Operation Enduring Freedom on October 7, 2001 with the stated goal of dismantling Al-Qaeda and ending its use of Afghanistan as a base for terrorist operations.
After the refusal of the Taliban regime to cease harbouring al-Qaeda, on October 7, 2001 the U.S. government launched military operations in Afghanistan. The Taliban, being so short sighted and selfish in its on ways, supported terrorism and invited US and 48 other countries to retaliate with JUSTIFIED retribution.

The underlying goal, as with anything, whether its installing/upgrading a turbo on a car (more power, more boost > more acceleration/speed) or fighting a war (Objective = remove terrorists, retribution, underlying objective = eradicate extremism) was to remove Al-Qaeda from power. The continuation of the War in Iraq continued this, in a basic attempt to eradicate Islamist extremism.

It's the underlying cause for war, and because of it, many authors, economists would argue that the world is safer now. As my Christopher Hitchens video above proved, would you really want a nuclear Iraq/Iran, chemical weapons and nuclear Libya, rampant Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan in today's world with these Middle East conflicts?
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7358656n

The United States has provided great sacrifices for our behalf. Which is why we have so much to be thankful and appreciative of. Are they perfect? Obviously not. Have they sacrificed much for the world? Absolutely, and at great cost.

EDIT: Great article about the Taliban in Afghanistan right now:
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/afgh.../20110310.aspx

excellent!

[Dumbass17]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


I agree but don't want to get involved in the surely ensuing internet battle. I just wanted to say Restrepo was awesome and everyone should see it

Part 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKQ5wOWsJfs
Part 2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmYaNg4MbY

is it really necessary to quote the OP's post when you're the first poster?
noob

/mini lesson