Simple (hopefully) question about the war in the Middle East

[broken_legs]

^^ haha.

Originally posted by broken_legs

that Osamma Bin Laden doesn't live in Afghanistan etc...

to which you reply...

Originally posted by 911fever
[B]
Something you don't seem to understand very well is logical reasoning.
We're not talking about the War in Iraq and WMD's.
We're talking about the War in Afghanistan.

Let's review what you said, and what you always say:

Originally posted by 911fever
You want to know what this whole war is about? It's about the battle against extremist Islam.

We invaded Afghanistan to find and kill the terrorizers - Al Queda and Osamma Bin Laden. Osamma has been gone for years, and yet we are still there.... This is where your ideological battle popped up. It didn't exist until we needed further justification to be there.

Up until 9/11 the taliban was a valued guest in the USA. If the battle is against them (as you say conditions were horrible even before 9/11, no one dispute this) why were we all buddy buddy with them?? Because we were trying to build a big pipeline, thats why. No one gave a shit about the plight of the Afghan people as long as there was money to be made.

The ideological battle didn't exist until it was invented by the US media/administration to justify a war in Iraq, and then continued intervention in Afghanistan, even though clearly the original reason for our attack find and kill Osamma Bin Laden and Al-Queda has long since faded away.

You are stretching - you are going into the past to find justifications for this war that were not justifications at that time, and not the reason we went there.

PS - We're talking about CANADIAN TROOPS. What exactly is the THREAT TO CANADA?

We went there to back up our Ally - They don't need our help anymore. How is this GOOD FOR CANADA?

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This bit here exposes you as a complete nut-case. You are saying that military action can extinguish ideas and religion, and that is a good idea for war.

That is insane.

Let's read on...:

The underlying goal, as with anything, whether its installing/upgrading a turbo on a car (more power, more boost > more acceleration/speed) or fighting a war (Objective = remove terrorists, retribution, underlying objective = eradicate extremism) was to remove Al-Qaeda from power. The continuation of the War in Iraq continued this, in a basic attempt to eradicate Islamist extremism.

CUCKOO! CUCKOO!

It's the underlying cause for war, and because of it, many authors, economists would argue that the world is safer now.

Many guests on Fox News would definitely agree.

As my Christopher Hitchens video above proved, would you really want a nuclear Iraq/Iran, chemical weapons and nuclear Libya, rampant Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan in today's world with these Middle East conflicts?
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7358656n

You seem to have a pretty loose definition of proof. Just about as loose as the proof of WMDs and other well known, proven lies told by the bush administration.

How about showing some proof of how CANADA IS BENEFITING FROM KILLING PEOPLE HALF WAY AROUND THE WORLD.

The United States has provided great sacrifices for our behalf. Which is why we have so much to be thankful and appreciative of. Are they perfect? Obviously not. Have they sacrificed much for the world? Absolutely, and at great cost.

wow. just wow. The US has sacrificed to keep us all safe?? LOL. More like the US has gone to war to protect its strategic, financial, and energy interests.

You are literally repeating Fox News Propaganda from the manual.

Are you a paid troll?

[911fever]

It's no use arguing with you. I feel like I'm losing IQ replying to you. But I enjoy destroying anti-US, left wing trolls like yourself.

You see the US as doing everything in its interests with no compassion or justification in retialiation to 9/11 . You see extremist Islam as a poor reason to wage war against terrorism, even when the US is attacked unfairly and unprovoked (Yemen 2000 U.S.S Cole) . You have your head stuck up your arse and you see the world as a safer place with extremist Islam, the Taliban, a chemically and biologically armed (and even possibly nuclear armed) Iraq under Saddam Hussein, and a nuclear Libya as our global neighbors. A world where Iran is spurred on by the USA's resistance to defend itself and to protect itself from terrorism and a world where defying UN sanctions is the norm.

The ideological battle didn't exist until it was invented by the US media/administration to justify a war in Iraq, and then continued intervention in Afghanistan, even though clearly the original reason for our attack find and kill Osamma Bin Laden and Al-Queda has long since faded away

Do you know what the War on Terror is? I don't like wikipedia, because idiots like yourself can write the definition, but this one isn't bad:
"The phrase War on Terror was first used by former US President George W. Bush and other high-ranking US officials to denote a global military, political, legal and ideological struggle against organizations designated as terrorist and regimes that were accused of having a connection to them or providing them with support or were perceived, or presented as posing a threat to the US and its allies in general. It was typically used with a particular focus on militant Islamists and al-Qaeda."

Essentially the war on Terror is a fight against Islamist Extremism. It's an ideological war in some aspects, again most intelligent people acknowledge the West is at war with extremist Islam (and justifiably so with suicide bombings and terrorism, from the WTC in '93 to the Tube bombings in London in '04) Understand? Nah, useless with you.

You write that:

We invaded Afghanistan to find and kill the terrorizers - Al Queda and Osamma Bin Laden. Osamma has been gone for years, and yet we are still there.... This is where your ideological battle popped up. It didn't exist until we needed further justification to be there.

Do you know why Canada is still in Afghanistan? And why the US is pouring more troops into there? Before you can google it, let me answer for you.
Pulling out after an air-strike, a few targeted missiles, and maybe dismantling of the Taliban would cause Afghanistan to be ripe for turmoil ALA Iraq in 1991 when the US prevented the invasion of Kuwait and left Saddam in power. Sure, dismantling, destroying, wiping out the Taliban and initial leadership of Al-Qaeda would be good, but the US had to stay to ensure long term success. In this world, where some have accused Afghanistan of being unwinnable, the US (and Canada and other NATO nations) HAVE TO STAY. It's called building the country up, ensuring democracy, fighting remnants of the Taliban, and preventing the country from going back to the same old tradition of extremist Islamic culture.

Again read this article I posted, just read it.
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/afgh.../20110310.aspx
"While many Afghans recognize that economic development, less corruption, less crime and more education would, in the long run, do more for Afghanistan, there's always the temptation to take the bribe, or deliver the cheap shot to the generous and helpful foreigners. The struggle in Afghanistan is not just about religion, or heroin or tribal rivalries, it's also about changing ancient customs. The old ways have a strong hold on most Afghans, even those determined to get away from the dismal past. "

"Up until 9/11 the taliban was a valued guest in the USA. If the battle is against them (as you say conditions were horrible even before 9/11, no one dispute this) why were we all buddy buddy with them?? Because we were trying to build a big pipeline, thats why. No one gave a shit about the plight of the Afghan people as long as there was money to be made"

This reveals your lack of knowledge and fundemental understanding of Afghanistan before 9/11.
The US actually threatened to invade Afghanistan BEFORE 9/11. Need proof? Article from 2001:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001...n.september113
"The Americans indicated to us that in case the Taliban does not behave and in case Pakistan also doesn't help us to influence the Taliban, then the United States would be left with no option but to take an overt action against Afghanistan," said Niaz Naik, a former foreign minister of Pakistan, who was at the meeting. "
Also, what about Bill Clinton's missile strikes on Afghanistan in 1998, which caused 20 deaths but missed Bin Laden? Sounds like a 'buddy-buddy' relationship! you're an idiot.

Get owned.
America was/has been considering wiping out Al-Qaeda terrorists from Afghanistan for a period of time. Saying they were 'buddy-buddy' is embarassing for you, revealing your lack of knowledge and understanding of Afghanistan pre 9/11 .

Canada is not benefitting entirely from fighting a war in Afghanistan. Neither is the US necessarily.
Want proof of what Canada is doing?
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/201...litias-110312/

They are training Afghani soldiers, providing support for the fight against the Taliban, al-Qaeda, etc.
They are implementing safeguards for the population and allowing civilians to take a greater role in their countries day-to-day activities, from voting to the marketplace. Which is why 48 countries were part of the activities of Afghanistan and the invasion - no longer could the world sit back.
Not everything is about WHAT CAN I BENEFIT (as a country)? Canada is fullfilling its role as an awesome non-selfish country by being in Afghanistan, and ALL OF US as Canadians should be proud and supportive of our soldiers there who risk their lives for the people of Afghanistan.

[Type_S1]

Anti-US people are hilarious. Sure I don't agree with some of the shit they do but come on if you deny there was a reason for the war in afghanistan at all you are retarded. It wasn't just the big bad horrible US that agree'd to go in remember that. This wasn't the doing of one nation this was the doing of many so stop pointing fingers and grow up seriously. But wait...the US planned 9/11 themselves as well didn't they just so they could start the war...and then convince many other nations as well?

[CUG]

I wish we weren't over there anymore. I don't like muslim extremists at all and wish we would have went at them more effectively; killing them and their sympathizers without a war.

[snoop101]

Not to get into this to much, but I thought I seen somewhere that during the 80's the US supplied guns to Afgan's and were actually friends with Osamma.

The other thing that is kinda odd is that the USA has some of the most advance military, so why do they have to go all ghetto and roam the streets. Just strike for the main targets and finish it off. Instead it was a all out war with the country. I dunno. I try not to follow it to much because it just seems to drag on.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by snoop101
Not to get into this to much, but I thought I seen somewhere that during the 80's the US supplied guns to Afgan's and were actually friends with Osamma.

The other thing that is kinda odd is that the USA has some of the most advance military, so why do they have to go all ghetto and roam the streets. Just strike for the main targets and finish it off. Instead it was a all out war with the country. I dunno. I try not to follow it to much because it just seems to drag on.

They supplied weapons to enable them to fight off the soviets AKA the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The main problem in Iraq and Afghanistan is that the US is there to do nation building. It is not a war, they are simply trying to stabilize the country and turning it into a working democracy. If that is your goal you can't exactly level the whole damn place. I mean if this was a conventional war it would have been over a long time ago.

Anyways I won't wade into the merits of what was done or the reasons behind it other than to say that broken_legs is off his rocker again and living in his dream land. Conspiracy theories are just the inane dreams of people who can't handle the fact that there is no master pulling strings in the background but everything is just a big giant random cluster fuck.

Oh and broken_legs you aren't using cognitive dissonance properly...

Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously.

So to recap an example would be how certain people on this forum are outraged that the Jewish people persecute the Palestinians but don't suffer from the same outrage when Jewish people are persecuted in Muslim nations. That's an example of cognitive dissonance which also explains why people then need to paint one side as righteous and the other side as evil. Frankly this is rather puerile logic.

[broken_legs]

I can't respond to all the misinformation in 911 posts so I'll just start from scratch.

Widely Reported News Stories:


Buddy Buddy with Taliban x 1 + Create Islamic Extremists we will later be fighting x1

1984-1994: CIA Funds Militant Textbooks for Afghanistan

By Joe Stephens and David B. Ottaway
Washington Post, 23 March 2002

In the twilight of the Cold War, the United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation. In 2002, the US will start producing less violent versions of the same books, which President Bush says will have “respect for human dignity, instead of indoctrinating students with fanaticism and bigotry.”

Buddy Buddy with Taliban... x 2
Enron Buddy Buddy with Bush Family- random fact
http://www.spike.com/video-clips/ccn...-support-enron

SHAMED ENRON BOSSES GAVE MILLIONS TO BIN LADEN & TALIBAN

By DEVLIN BARRETT, Associated Press

HOUSTON: The Enron Corporation gave the Taliban dictator rulers millions of dollars in a no-holds-barred bid to strike a deal for an energy pipeline in Afghanistan.

Enron executives even met with Taliban officials in Texas, where they were given the red-carpet treatment and promised a fortune if the deal went through. This bombshell has been revealed following an investigation into the collapse of the company that ripped off Americans for hundreds of millions of dollars.

Tum tum tum, what else, what else

Buddy Buddy with Taliban x 3

Oil Barons Court Taliban in Texas
By Caroline Lees The Telegraph - 12/14/1997

THE Taliban, Afghanistan's Islamic fundamentalist army, is about to sign a £2 billion contract with an American oil company to build a pipeline across the war-torn country.
...It will supply two of the fastest-growing energy markets in the world: Pakistan and India. The Unocal group has one significant attraction for the Taliban - it has American government backing. At the end of their stay last week, the Afghan visitors were invited to Washington to meet government officials. The US government, which in the past has branded the Taliban's policies against women and children "despicable", appears anxious to please the fundamentalists to clinch the lucrative pipeline contract.
http://www.mapcruzin.com/news/war111901a.htm

Buddy Buddy with Taliban x 4

University helped U.S. reach out to Taliban
By Michael J. Berens Chicago Tribune staff reporter

October 22, 2001

About a dozen Afghan leaders visit the US. They are militia commanders, mostly Taliban, and some with ties to al-Qaeda. Their exact names and titles remain classified. For five weeks, they visit numerous locales in the US, including Mt. Rushmore. All their expenses are paid by the US government and the University of Nebraska. Thomas Gouttierre, an academic heading an Afghanistan program at the University of Nebraska, hosts their visit. Gouttierre is working as a consultant to Unocal at the time, and some Taliban visits to the US are paid for by Unocal, such as a visit two years earlier (see December 4, 1997). However, it is unknown if Unocal plays a role in this particular trip. Gouttierre had previously been paid by the CIA to create Afghan textbooks promoting violence and jihad
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,4635259.story

OK - Now on to other issues...

"un-provoked attacks" USS Cole - Embassy Bombings etc..

... You say unprovoked.

The terrorists themselves say they were provoked. They say that the USA is medling in their politics, stealing their resources, supporting harsh dictators, causing general shit living conditions, and causing the deaths of muslims in their own holy land.

But conveniently, you ignore all of that and say instead that "They Hate Our Freedom" and stick with that line.

Well Lets see what Osamma Bin Laden Himself Said:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4686034/..._for_al-qaida/


1996 - "Bin Laden threatens to wage an Islamic holy war against the United States and its allies if Washington does not remove its troops from the Gulf region."

1997 - "if the American government is serious about avoiding explosions inside the U.S., then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1,250 million Muslims."

1998 - the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, was hit "because it was the major U.S. intelligence center in East Africa."

1999 - "“A man is considered a fighter whether he carries a gun or pays taxes to help kill us. So when they say bin Laden kills civilians, who are they killing in Palestine? Children. Our aim is that every American man is an enemy whether he kills us or pays taxes to kill us. The U.S. has a double standard...75 percent of the American people support Clinton hitting Saddam Hussein. It is a nation where the president’s rating goes up when he kills civilians'

2000 - "Enough of words. It is time to take action against the iniquitous and faithless force which has spread troops through Egypt, Yemen and Saudi Arabia."

2000 - "Our officers and soldiers, and the sons of our people in Egypt, should learn the lesson of the U.S. destroyer in Aden; they have the Suez Canal through which dozens of U.S. and Jewish ships pass. “They [Jews and Americans] must realize that we have no other option but to besiege their embassies and military and civilian centers in our countries, which are numerous...let the embassies and centers be burned down, ships and destroyers destroyed and individuals killed.”

Not a whole lot in there about hating freedom. Kind of sounds like the guy is pissed off that the US an Israel have their armies all over the middle east and were screwing fucking over most of the muslim world.

nah.... that makes too much sense. Must be because he "Hates our freedom"

...

Lets move on to your Nation Building comments:

Canada and other NATO nations HAVE TO STAY. It's called building the country up, ensuring democracy, fighting remnants of the Taliban, and preventing the country from going back to the same old tradition of extremist Islamic culture.

Please provide ONE EXAMPLE OF THIS EVER WORKING ANYWHERE IN HISTORY EVER. You are crazy to think we change the entire culture, history, and religion of a country. I don't even need to argue this point because its fucking ridiculous.

However, if you can show me an example of this working anywhere in history - I am a believer. Show me the way oh wise one.

More complicated moral issues like killing 100,000 civilians to force "democracy" on a bunch of people that don't want it, I will leave out of this discussion because that would probably make your tiny head explode.

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


Anyways I won't wade into the merits of what was done or the reasons behind it other than to say that broken_legs is off his rocker again and living in his dream land. Conspiracy theories are just the inane dreams of people who can't handle the fact that there is no master pulling strings in the background but everything is just a big giant random cluster fuck.

There is no conspiracy theory. We went to afghanistan to find Osamma - He's long gone. WTF are we still doing there? oh right - were nation building. Was that the reason we went to war? Nope? OK lets GTFO then for christs sake.

Thats not a conspiracy theory. Nor is it a conspiracy theory for COS to think that people might get pissed off if there were soldiers in their back yard shooting at them. Thats common sense. Common sense that seems to fly way over the heads of all you idiots who can't understand that people might be mad for a reason.

Oh and broken_legs you aren't using cognitive dissonance properly...

Jesus Christ. I did not. Go read what I wrote again you twerp.

Canada is fullfilling its role as an awesome non-selfish country by being in Afghanistan, and ALL OF US as Canadians should be proud and supportive of our soldiers there who risk their lives for the people of Afghanistan.

I know it's hard for you to fathom, but it's still possible to like soldiers and support our troops if you don't agree with the war.

Maybe one day you'll make up your own opinion on something rather than copying everything word for word from fox news.

[snoop101]

You guys have wait to much time on your hands on a Saturday night.


Just sayin

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by broken_legs
There is no conspiracy theory. We went to afghanistan to find Osamma - He's long gone. WTF are we still doing there? oh right - were nation building. Was that the reason we went to war? Nope? OK lets GTFO then for christs sake.

Thats not a conspiracy theory. Nor is it a conspiracy theory for COS to think that people might get pissed off if there were soldiers in their back yard shooting at them. Thats common sense. Common sense that seems to fly way over the heads of all you idiots who can't understand that people might be mad for a reason.

Jesus Christ. I did not. Go read what I wrote again you twerp.

It must be nice to live in such a simple white and black fantasy land.

As far as why we are still there? Don't forget about that ultra lucrative pipeline that was built immediately after the war started. Natural resources, strategic geopolitical influence, blah blah blah.

Sure sounds like conspiracy theories to me. The whole scary man behind the curtain etc... Frankly all we need to do is apply Occam's razor here. The real reason we are still there is the following: We went in we destroyed their government and destabilized the region. Leaving would plunge the country into a blood bath and almost certainly result in civil war.

Do you really think Afghanistan or Iraq would be a big happy country if the foreign devils simply left? If you go in and topple a government you have to provide a viable alternative if you don't want the blood of tens of thousands on your hands. I mean really in Iraq you have Shia's, Sunni's, and Kurds none of which really like each other. Do you really think that removing Saddam and leaving the country would not have plunged Iraq into the largest blood bath in it's history? Not to mention the mess it would have resulted in if the neighboring countries had decided to take this chance to carve up sections of the country? Now for Afghanistan what do you think would happen if everyone left right after axing the Taliban leadership? Oh right same story civil war.

So frankly instead of holding delusional points of view about why we are still in Afghanistan the real question would be why the hell did we agree to go there in the first place? It was a foregone conclusion before we even landed that if we axed their government we would have to provide a viable alternative. History has plenty of examples think: Japan, Germany, etc...

In any case you get way too worked up over this stuff and your anger/annoyance leaks into your posts. To use a great meme "YOU MAD?!!! YES YOU MAD!!!".

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin

Sure sounds like conspiracy theories to me. The whole scary man behind the curtain etc...

I posted 4 widely reported news stories from before 9/11 about Enron and Unocal doing billions of dollars of business with the Taliban.

It's not a conspiracy theory. But you can try to calm your cognitive dissonance by believing that.

Also, I don't believe thats why Canada went to war. We went there to support the US in finding and killing Osama Bin Laden and the terrorists. We arent doing that anymore, its time for Canadians to come home.

Frankly all we need to do is apply Occam's razor here. The real reason we are still there is the following: We went in we destroyed their government and destabilized the region. Leaving would plunge the country into a blood bath and almost certainly result in civil war.

Agreed. Time to go home. Lets go.

Do you really think Afghanistan or Iraq would be a big happy country if the foreign devils simply left? If you go in and topple a government you have to provide a viable alternative if you don't want the blood of tens of thousands on your hands. I mean really in Iraq you have Shia's, Sunni's, and Kurds none of which really like each other. Do you really think that removing Saddam and leaving the country would not have plunged Iraq into the largest blood bath in it's history? Not to mention the mess it would have resulted in if the neighboring countries had decided to take this chance to carve up sections of the country? Now for Afghanistan what do you think would happen if everyone left right after axing the Taliban leadership? Oh right same story civil war.

Totally 100% agree with you. Let them fight it out. Whether we kill civilians, or they do, the blood is still getting spilled. I'd much rather it not be our troops killing people.

So frankly instead of holding delusional points of view about why we are still in Afghanistan the real question would be why the hell did we agree to go there in the first place? It was a foregone conclusion before we even landed that if we axed their government we would have to provide a viable alternative. History has plenty of examples think: Japan, Germany, etc...

Japan and Germany? Really? That was a world war, fought conventionally, and there was no occupation, no religious struggle, an A-Bomb was dropped on 2 cities, and both countries had a complete and normally functioning political system before hand.

In any case you get way too worked up over this stuff and your anger/annoyance leaks into your posts. To use a great meme "YOU MAD?!!! YES YOU MAD!!!".

yup.

[pinoyboy88]

Al-Qaeda was created to fend off communism influence in the middle east during the cold war. The US trained them and provided them with weaponary. Basically America is fighting people they trained to fight their war in foreign land.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
It was a foregone conclusion before we even landed that if we axed their government we would have to provide a viable alternative.

It was also a foregone conclusion (or at least stated as such) that providign a viable alternative was going to be a cakewalk. Too bad nobody bothered to tell the Afghani's that before rolling through in humvees. Also the lack of bribery.

Originally posted by pinoyboy88
Al-Qaeda was created to fend off communism influence in the middle east during the cold war. The US trained them and provided them with weaponary. Basically America is fighting people they trained to fight their war in foreign land.

And $10 says that within 10 years the people they are training now will be terrorists as well. The problem being that once America leaves a highly trained militia force behind, they don't stop doing stuff behind the scenes that allows people like Bin Laden to rally sympathy and fanatical followers. Once the allied forces leave Afghanistan, multinationals will still be poking around with all the land and resource rights they bought from America, as well as black ops teams still finding the remnants of the existing terrorist cells. Enter [insert name here] to say "hey look guys, americans fucking around, who wants to go blow up some of their stuff....", wash, rinse, repeat