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Thread: Federal Liberals cap and trade election plank raises questions

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    Default Federal Liberals cap and trade election plank raises questions

    http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/albe.../17862401.html

    Alberta's oilsands have come under the crosshairs of the federal Liberals with a new energy scheme one economist says harkens back to Pierre Trudeau's hated National Energy Program.

    "This policy could have come out of the Trudeau Liberals," said University of Calgary economics professor Frank Atkins on the heels of the Grit campaign manifesto released Saturday.

    "I don't mind having a big conversation about energy and the environment, as long as we're (Alberta) at the head of the table ... this smacks of the National Energy Program."

    The Liberal's 98-page platform, 'Your Family Your Future Your Canada,' pledges to establish a cap-and-trade system that would set a ceiling on the amount of carbon emissions by large, industrial facilities and pave the way for companies to bid on emission permits that could then be traded amongst themselves.

    Liberals also want a quick death for the Accelerated Capital Cost Allowance -- a tax break installed years ago to promote oilsands development -- which was to be phased out by 2015 and use the cash for greener technology investments and environmental stewardship in the oilsands.

    Atkins and other economists predict the plan could cost the energy industry billions of dollars.

    The Grits say an immediate end to that tax break alone would yield nearly $500 million in increased revenue over the next two years.

    Liberal boss Michael Ignatieff said the initiative is needed to route subsidies currently going to oilsands production towards shaving down Canada's carbon emissions.

    "We want to end that immediate subsidy to the oilsands, and take all the money we save from that and immediately drive it into CO2 reduction technologies and incentives in the oilsands," Ignatieff said Sunday.

    "We've also committed, if you look in the fine print, to cap and trade. And we've also committed to a climate reduction target of 2 degrees Celsius by 2050, which is the international standard ... In international climate change discussions, instead of being the dog in the manger, we stand up and make concrete commitments and move forward."

    Minister of State (Finance) Ted Menzies said the Conservative government's clean air agenda includes increasing energy efficiency, reducing greenhouse gas emissions, improving air quality and focusing on regulatory actions.

    "One thing we will not do is slap a multi-billion dollar carbon tax on Canadian businesses, particularly as we are emerging from a global economic recession and working to complete our economic recovery and strengthen families' financial security," he said.

    "This massive Ignatieff-Liberal tax hike would slam the brakes on our recovery and kill jobs across the country. It is a reckless policy that would do irreparable harm to our economy at a time when our recovery remains fragile."

    Economist Brian Leach said there are still many questions surrounding the Liberal cap-and-spend initiative and suggested the hit to Alberta's oilpatch could top $30 billion through the Liberal's proposed emission credit auction revenue.

    "It's a big number with no real explanation as to where that number is coming from," Leach said.

    "It puts that ability to grow and take advantage of that resource at risk."

    Industry leaders within the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, comprised of companies responsible for about 90% of Canadian oil and natural gas, were mum on the Liberal's proposed agenda over the weekend.

    "It's CAPP's policy not to comment on the election (candidates, parties, platforms, outcomes, etc) during the process," CAPP spokesman Travis Davies wrote in an email to the Sun.

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    Both Liberals and NDP are throwing oilsand under the bus.

    It is good from a strategy stand point. They are not going to win in Alberta anyway, no matter what their platform may be. May as well fuck the Albertans if they win.

    That said, I think even Harper's plan targets the oilsand but in a lesser degree to buy eastern vote. So Ontario/Quebec are still the driving force when it comes to policy making.

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    I hope they continue this approach, it really opens the door for a strong conservative push:

    "If you starving eastern provinces don't want to see equalization payments dry up, vote conservative"

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    If they do this it will just plunge the whole country back into an even deeper recession that we might not recover from. I just hope that we manage to squeeze out a Conservative majority this time so I dont have to vote again in 2 years and can find a job.
    See Crank. See Crank Walk. Walk Crank Walk.

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    Cap and Trade will be the biggest heist Wallstreet has ever perpetrated on mankind.

    I suggest you write your MP and suggest they give their F*cking head a shake.

    If this actually goes through we will all be paying through the nose for "carbon credits" bought from facilities that don't release carbon, and sold to facilities that do. The net effect will be ZERO on carbon emissions, yet the price for everything will go up.

    Meanwhile wallstreet will be making record profits trading carbon credits.

    All of the major proponents of Cap and Trade and Big Banks. Banks only support things that make them money.

    Ignatius is a moron.

    eDIT:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...carbon-trading
    Last edited by broken_legs; 04-04-2011 at 12:33 PM.
    TRUTH: it's the new hate speech.
    In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - Orwell

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    Originally posted by Xtrema


    It is good from a strategy stand point. They are not going to win in Alberta anyway, no matter what their platform may be. May as well fuck the Albertans if they win.
    So unfortunate but so true.

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    ...
    Last edited by Sugarphreak; 07-02-2019 at 03:29 PM.

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    Originally posted by Xtrema
    Both Liberals and NDP are throwing oilsand under the bus.

    It is good from a strategy stand point. They are not going to win in Alberta anyway, no matter what their platform may be. May as well fuck the Albertans if they win.

    That said, I think even Harper's plan targets the oilsand but in a lesser degree to buy eastern vote. So Ontario/Quebec are still the driving force when it comes to policy making.
    True but if they ever want people here to warm up maybe they should start catering to the area more, because they never do and Alberta is a rapidly growing province gaining more and more power.

    Nonetheless, completely destroying the Albertan energy economy through the NEP didn't just lose the Liberals Alberta (they never had it) but a enough of the nation to have the Liberals voted out the following election.

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    Originally posted by derpderp
    True but if they ever want people here to warm up maybe they should start catering to the area more, because they never do and Alberta is a rapidly growing province gaining more and more power.
    More power? Alberta has no power. We are a tiny insignificant province compared to the rest of the country. Alberta makes up less than 10% of the population of Canada so we sure as hell don't have any political power.

    In either case why cater to such a backward province? We haven't changed our voting patterns in decades. Just look at the provincial conservatives, no change in government for 50 years? You could run a monkey with the Tory blue and it would get elected in Alberta. Which is why candidates don't even bother campaigning in their ridings. It's a foregone conclusion who is going to get elected so why even bother?

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    Im with Mazdavirgin. The liberals have clearly written off alberta for the past few decades as guaranteed torie seats. They can attract the rest of the country by showing theyre coming down hard on the oilsands, which are frankly a public opinion nightmare as soon as you get out of alberta.

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    Originally posted by derpderp


    True but if they ever want people here to warm up maybe they should start catering to the area more, because they never do and Alberta is a rapidly growing province gaining more and more power.

    Nonetheless, completely destroying the Albertan energy economy through the NEP didn't just lose the Liberals Alberta (they never had it) but a enough of the nation to have the Liberals voted out the following election.
    You are dreaming. Alberta barely cracks 1/10 of the country's population. Our system of representatives are based on populations.

    Ontario who has more than 1/3 will ALWAYS call the shot. If Alberta ever get to hold 1/3 of the country's population, I'm moving the Saskatchewan.

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    Of course Alberta still isn't that large, but we are the 4th most populous province in Canada and have seen over a million person increase in about twenty years with more to come. And we don't always need to have voting power, with the strong economy many are inclined to think we obviously are doing something correct over here.

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    Why should energy producers not be responsible for there waste?

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    I'm impressed, I don't think you could have put anymore bias into the OP.

    A big blue C as your avatar, and linking an article to the Edmonton Sun, the shittiest of conservative shit rags. You didn't even make an effort to say what you thought about it.

    A+ trolling good sir.

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    I dunno.

    Nowadays it pays to be the man in debt. Everyone is racing to the bottom, which means not only cut the Oilsands subsidies, but increase corporate taxes from 16.5 to 18 percent.

    If Canadian oil companies start to run defecits - Then the US will be forced to start charging its customers $11 per gallon for gasoline (and an extra 50 cents for every $600B quantitative ease that the US decides to do)

    Sure, it will probably cripple the US. But when is the last time we bought anything from the US that is not overpriced to start with?

    Race you to the bottom!
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    http://www.td.com/economics/special/ca1009_climate.pdf

    "The key lessons that we take away from the analysis is that the macroeconomic and regional economic impact is significant. The breadth and depth of the policy response is also remarkable. The speed at which progress must be made is also notable, and would require considerable commitment.
    The structural changes necessary at the industrial level are masked by the more subdued headline economic impact assessment. The fiscal transfer involved is enormous and has a significant impact on the economy."

    I wonder how different the Liberals policy will be than these suggestions?
    Success is the ultimate revenge.

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    Originally posted by derpderp
    Of course Alberta still isn't that large, but we are the 4th most populous province in Canada and have seen over a million person increase in about twenty years with more to come. And we don't always need to have voting power, with the strong economy many are inclined to think we obviously are doing something correct over here.
    While we are an economic power house to some degree, we will never grow or have people immigrate here fast enough to beat Ontario.

    We have $ but we are just an one horse town. We don't have manufacturing, finance sectors or ports. Tourism is almost dead due to high $. Other industry is tough to set root due to inflated prices on everything including wages. We will never have enough people to get away from Ontario calling the shot unless you vote for independence.

    Having a Conservative government is as good as Alberta is going to get.
    Last edited by Xtrema; 04-04-2011 at 04:31 PM.

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