F-35 Lightning II Discussion

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by LollerBrader


Fail.

My opinion has not been influenced by media, of which I've read none regarding this story. I don't need to read a newspaper to see read this one as just another wealth transfer.

For more information, google "kleptocracy"

I love conspiracy theories so I just made this one up:

The Raptor will be the Air Superiority Fighter that the US will keep to itself to maintain Air Superiority over EVERYONE - That along with other top secret tech we wont know about until after it attacks you. Meanwhile it will convince NATO members to buy super expensive planes that will bring all of the NATO members to a common platform. NATO will then become part of the NWO Imperial War Machine, after all government succeed their sovereignty to some stupid monetary reform thingy sometime in the next 5-15 years after the world financial crisis explodes and WWIII starts.

Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?

Hows My Driving?
1-888-8 KLEPTO

[jutes]

Originally posted by LollerBrader


Fail.

My opinion has not been influenced by media, of which I've read none regarding this story. I don't need to read a newspaper to see read this one as just another wealth transfer.

For more information, google "kleptocracy"

[broken_legs]

^ ya but I was being serious, and the human centipede is right

[hampstor]

I have expressed my distaste on the lack of an RFP done for the F-35 (just not here). In the corporate world, single-sourcing is heavily discouraged.

I understand that an RFP will lengthen the procurement process (for those who are pushing that we need to acquire something now), but if you don't follow standard procurement processes you may end up buying the wrong widget, at the wrong price, with unfavourable terms and conditions.

Aside from the actual selection criteria (which would include experts to evaluate merit, TCO, delivery schedules, etc.), the biggest risk by not going with an RFP is you have little leverage in negotiations with a vendor. On a piece of hardware as complicated and expensive as this, the risks of:

1) any increase in cost of acquisition
2) cost of maintenance (parts, training)
3) slipping delivery time lines
4) any scope changes
5) complications arising from all the different 3rd parties

need to be addressed and mitigated by negotiating in proper processes to deal with these risks as well as penalties and termination provisions. By not going to RFP, proposals submitted under an RFP are legally binding, your only recourse if the vendor isn't willing to budge on a term is to cancel the project, or to accept their terms.

The only times I've ever seen single-sourcing properly justified is when you get 1) an exceptionally good price, 2) you are acquiring something from a sector dominated by a monopoly.

edit: I deal with single-sourcing requests regularly. I often discourage the business from moving forward with them, however from time-to-time on a major procurement a business decision is made and a single-source procurement is done (almost always because of time lines). What has happened is after the contract is executed, the shit hits the fan due to the vendor fucking up, misrepresenting what they can do, time lines slip, etc. Costs skyrocket, and the business then complains to me that I was not able to negotiate in a good termination for convenience/for breach clause. Project/business teams always assume that nothing will go wrong and they've selected the perfect vendor.

[Go4Long]

pshaw...that never happens in our company hampstor

[hampstor]

Originally posted by Go4Long
pshaw...that never happens in our company hampstor

I was referring to other places where I have previously worked. That never happened in a big corporation.

[Go4Long]

usually the big corporations are the ones promising things on a totally unrealistic timeline...oh...I see what you did there

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by hampstor

Aside from the actual selection criteria (which would include experts to evaluate merit, TCO, delivery schedules, etc.), the biggest risk by not going with an RFP is you have little leverage in negotiations with a vendor. On a piece of hardware as complicated and expensive as this, the risks of:

1) any increase in cost of acquisition
2) cost of maintenance (parts, training)
3) slipping delivery time lines
4) any scope changes
5) complications arising from all the different 3rd parties

When your your budget is "between $16 and $30B" I think the people doing the buying are very worried about problems such as these. Most successful deals allow a 100% margin of error in cost projection.

And don't worry, under a perfect timeline we will only be below the bare minimum amount of F-35s required to do the job of defending Canada for two years. And they will be at full operational capacity only a year after we get the first batch (again, on the perfect timeline).

What could possibly go wrong?

[hampstor]

Originally posted by kertejud2


When your your budget is "between $16 and $30B" I think the people doing the buying are very worried about problems such as these. Most successful deals allow a 100% margin of error in cost projection.

And don't worry, under a perfect timeline we will only be below the bare minimum amount of F-35s required to do the job of defending Canada for two years. And they will be at full operational capacity only a year after we get the first batch (again, on the perfect timeline).

What could possibly go wrong?

Those are *always* issues with any large complicated procurement project. Those will be addressed even by the team negotiating with Lockheed but as I said, without the leverage provided by going with an RFP, you will usually take it up the ass when you try and put/share the liability with the vendor.

[Go4Long]

I just found a 10 page article in the September issue of Air International on the delivery of the first F-35A to Eglin AFB in Florida.

The 33rd FW seems to think it is a good addition.

Col Toth summed-up the F-35 , revolutionary in it's design, as an evolutionary aircraft too: "Taking all the different capabilities and putting them together in one aircraft, makes the F-35 a weapons system that brings us fifth generation capability, tying the F-35 and the F-22 in together to conduct future combat operations with our international partners with the same capabilities. It is a tremendous leap forward in evolution."

[ZenOps]

Microsoft said the same thing about Windows ME.

How can anyone possibly know how good a plane is until its finished and in service? They said the Titanic was the greatest vessel ever created until it sank.

[Go4Long]

The 33rd fighter wing has had F-35s since July 14th. Pretty sure they've flown em once or twice since then.

[LollerBrader]

Originally posted by ZenOps


They said the Titanic was the greatest vessel ever created until it sank.

Color me pedantic, but it was, until it abdicated the title.

[Go4Long]

the latest on the program as of the begining of november

http://f-35.ca/2011/f-35-program-status-and-fast-facts/

[Sugarphreak]

...

[kertejud2]

So despite being 240 times the size of the Netherlands, Canada only needs 0.75 times the amount of aircraft to carry out the defense of the country. Now that's efficiency.

[LollerBrader]

Originally posted by kertejud2
Now that's efficiency.

Using land area as the sole criteria to size arms purchases - Now that's oversimplistic.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by kertejud2
So despite being 240 times the size of the Netherlands, Canada only needs 0.75 times the amount of aircraft to carry out the defense of the country. Now that's efficiency.

I'm sure someone in the Netherlands looking at these numbers is saying "How come Canada is 240 times our size yet only needs 1.3 times the amount of aircraft to carry out the defense of the country. Now that's efficiency."

[KrisYYC]

I highly doubt Italy will be getting 131 F-35's given their financial situation. Why would they even need that many anyway?

[alloroc]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7BD1I220111214

Japan's government and ruling party officials have approved a Defense Ministry proposal to buy Lockheed's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter as the country's next mainstay fighter, public broadcaster NHK said on Wednesday. Japanese media said on Tuesday that Lockheed was likely to win a deal worth more than $7 billion, beating out Boeing's (BA.N) F/A-18 and the Eurofighter Typhoon, made by a consortium of European companies including BAE Systems (BAES.L).

If both Japan and Austrailia buy, we buy, plain and simple.