Project Management Professional (PMP) Certificate

[nguyen]

Does anyone have this certificate? I'm looking at getting this certificate, but as i'm reading over the requirements, it says i need a 4 year post-secondary degree, which i have, and 3500 hours of working experience in delegating projects, and 35 hours class time etc.

My question is: How do i record my hours? Do i need to officially apply to be listed as "working at attaining the hours"?

My dad says that his friend told him that you just work and then present your hours when you're done to the institute but that makes no sense to me, as anyone can work for XX years and then they can decide they want their PMP so they can simply walk next door and hand in their hours and claim that they have been attaining their hours for so long and they're entitled to write the exam.

Does anyone have experience in this? Advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

[Orbie]

I'm not sure what makes no sense to you. You can choose to apply for a PMP certification when you meet the criteria, including PM hours and the exam. Don't know many people with 3500 hours of PM work experience fresh out of post-secondary. You basically gain experience in the field and then apply for the designation. You can't just make shit up, you have to have documentation and references to back up your claims. They do random audits on applications as well as yearly audits on existing members as well to make sure their qualifications are legitimate. You also still need to study for the exam portion, albeit it should be easier for someone with full qualifications.

The time between which you apply and get the certification is meant for preparation for the exam, not for you to gain experience, that you do before you apply.

If someone who has been doing legitimate PM for 20 years why would he be any less qualified than a newbie PM who has 2-3 years of experience when applying for a PMP?

[Cos]

I am registered with pmi writing the pmp exam in the spring. Pmi actually has a signed excel sheet to record your hours.

[nguyen]

So i just have to work and tell my boss that i'm working towards this certificate and i just have to write him down as a reference? The documentation process confuses me. Don't know how they would track that i actually put in 3500 hours instead of let's say...3000 hours.

How is it documented? I looked at the PMP application forms and it just says "write down amount of hours accrued". Unless you do the 3500 hours and then apply, then the institute looks it over past that period of time to confirm that the tasks that you are doing are indeed the tasks that are outlined in the application process as you wait for recognition to write the exam.

Basically, i've been with this company for a year doing logistics and invoicing, there are some tasks that apply to the PMP process such as closing deals or finishing certain projects. I just wanted to know if i could use the hours i have worked in the past year to get the ball rolling, or if i have to start fresh as of today, or whenever i apply for the PMP

[Orbie]

No you don't have to start fresh when you apply, the stuff that you've been doing over the last year are all valid for the application when you decide to go for it. The class hours portion can apply to post-seconday courses you've taken as well, so you can see that pretty much all your valid experience to this point is applicable. If you have exactly 3500 hours that will probably be hard to verify to the exact hour, but my bet is most people are applying above that line. I wouldn't think of the 3500 hours as an exact number to hit, it's more like saying 2-3 years PM experience but without the year restrictions for people who may have accelerated PM experience in a short time vs. people with smaller PM experience stretched out over a longer period.

[nguyen]

Okay perfect, I just didn't know what to do about the past time i've served. How will i nkow what classes are valid for the certificate? I graduated with a bachelor of commerce degree majoring in management. so....90% of my 3rd/4th year was straight group projects and teamwork.

COS: How many hours have you attained before you applied to PMI?

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Cos
I am registered with pmi writing the pmp exam in the spring. Pmi actually has a signed excel sheet to record your hours.

I'll talk with you a bit about this on Monday if thats ok with you?

[Cos]

Originally posted by nguyen

COS: How many hours have you attained before you applied to PMI?

Sorry for the shitty post earlier, I was in Lethbridge so I was typing from my phone.

You can become an associate member of PMI at anytime, go to the conference, get PM Network and everything else. Also you dont have to be a PMP to become a Project Manager. I was a Project Lead for 2 1/2 years and then was promoted to a PM last November. MOST people become PM's and then go for PMP. They call it the accidental PM.

I have to get 7500 hours because I have a diploma from SAIT. I am currently around 6800. I have been running projects for about 4 years but you dont want to say you worked 2080 a year. I can give you the spreadsheet if you like. I have taken all the courses through Mt Royal and I found it great. My project Assistant was taking it through SAIT and she ended up switching into my class.

You didnt really explain your experience but I want to give you a word of caution. Make sure you know what you are getting into. Most people think PM's are like Project Engineers. The big shit who makes all the decisions. In reality the PM does a TON of paperwork (project charters, RACI's, communication plans, risk assessments, etc). I love my job but so many people who WANT to be a PM dont typically really want to be one.

Originally posted by FraserB


I'll talk with you a bit about this on Monday if thats ok with you?

No problem at all man.

[FraserB]

QFT.

Loads of paperwork, meetings and the like.

[ExtraSlow]

Does anyone find that this designation leads to better career opportunities or higher pay?
The PMI website say that accredited members make 10% more, but that could just mean the higher paid people are more qualified, and more qualified people can easily get accredited.

[Cos]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Does anyone find that this designation leads to better career opportunities or higher pay?

This is like the P.Eng or CA of the Project Management world. It is not easy to get and is therefore actually one of the only designations I am happy I am getting.

Most decent PM jobs require or strongly suggest a PMP, especially the organizations that follow PMBOK. To move up the ladder to Senior PM or a Program Manager you pretty much need to be an old boy who has proved it or a PMP.

[ExtraSlow]

Sorry, I had a ninja edit after you quoted me.
Anotehr Ninja edit:
I actually found that when i got my P.Eng, it wasn't beneficial at all in my current position. No raise associated with it. However, it would be very helpful if I was looking for work.

[Cos]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Sorry, I had a ninja edit after you quoted me.

Lol I did too.

10% more pay for the same job, same person, etc? I dont believe that. But getting good (and high profile) projects are much easier when you have PMP behind your name. Most Project Management companies have most partners being PMP. Also getting another decent PM job would be much easier with PMP (if in a different company, in the same company I dont see it being that great).

Yeah getting a PMP is probably like your PEng. Unless you are moving or you are chasing high profile jobs (or are in a company that is really superficial) I dont see the benefit but it is a long term investment.

You're a Production Engineer right?

[FraserB]

I think the P. Eng is a bit different. He needs it to stamp drawings and advance to supervisory roles. I think a lot of places make it mandatory for project engineers to have their P. Eng as well. But thats just my rough understanding of it.

[Cos]

Oh I agree, if you want to be a signing authority you need your P.Eng. While PMP doesnt give you any legal rights over a normal person it is the same sort of idea.

I would liken it to an engineer getting their P.Eng in a job where they dont need to sign anything. While great and great for the future. There is way less of a benefit.

Originally posted by nguyen

My dad says that his friend told him that you just work and then present your hours when you're done to the institute but that makes no sense to me, as anyone can work for XX years and then they can decide they want their PMP so they can simply walk next door and hand in their hours and claim that they have been attaining their hours for so long and they're entitled to write the exam.

Also I should have responded to this, sorry. No it isnt that simple. You need documented proof of those hours, now PMI may not audit it but if you get audited and you dont qualify you are banned for life IIRC.

You need your 3500/7500 hours AND your 35 hours of schooling before you can even apply. Now most of the courses you take are much much bigger than that. The MRU one is 12 full days and a written paper (25 pages). It takes most people a couple years if they work full time.

Once that is complete and they accept you, you then have to write the PMP exam, which is pretty difficult. Average failure rate of something like 50%. There are tons of classes to take to try and pass. The exam is 250 questions, 4 hours, and comes from a database of thousands. Also it is based on the PMBOK guide so it is very technical.

Once you pass you are a PMP but you need to maintain a certain amount of EDU's a year. This is in training, writing papers, writing books, attending conferences, etc.

Although it isnt easy it is helpful in the end.

[voodoomusic]

I am a senior project manager and did my PMP a couple of years ago, have done some other certifications since.

For the coursework requirement (35 hours), I suppose it's possible you could try to kludge together something based on what you took in your undergrad degree—although PMI will tell you it's supposed to relate directly to the project management knowledge areas, and there aren't too many undergrad courses that would do that. Personally I would highly recommend taking an introduction to project management course, which you can usually find through any college or university's continuing/adult education division. I took Foundations of Project Management at U of T and it was 3 hrs once/week for 12 weeks (so 36 hours, about exactly right for the PMI requirement) and gives a solid background in the stuff you're going to need to know to pass the exam.

For the experience requirement I thought it was 4500 hours with a degree (it was for me) or 7500 without, but maybe they have reduced to 3500. You also need to give the date ranges of each project you worked on, and you need at least 36 months' worth of experience—so even if you're a hero and work 3000 hours/year, doesn't mean you can apply after a year and a half. I believe you can go back as much as 8 years to find the required 36 months/4500 hours, so if you've had breaks and stuff in between that's ok.

They do audit people (this happens between submitting the application, and being officially informed that you're now "eligible" to write the exam—once you're declared eligible you have a year to study and write), and from what I've heard they are pretty thorough. On the application they will ask for a fairly detailed description of the kind of work you were doing on each project, and they'll want you to break the tasks down by phases of the project management process (initiation, planning, executing, monitoring/controlling, and closing). You need to have experience in all of the phases before you can write the exam, so if you were executing tasks (say as an IT developer) but never actually planned or closed out a project, you're going to be out of luck. If you don't know much about project management it will be pretty difficult even to complete the application properly.

If they look at what you've submitted and if it doesn't pass the sniff test, they will start looking more thoroughly and phoning all your supervisors. You're right, they probably won't be able to say for sure whether you spent 600 hours vs. 500, but if you say you spent 500 and then your supervisor says it was a two-week project, you're fucked. They can and will ban you from PMI membership (and hence PMP certification) for life.

I don't say all this to scare you, I just think honesty is the best policy. Besides, there are now something like 500,000 PMPs worldwide and hundreds of people are writing the exam every day. Despite what I wrote above, they can't audit everybody, and in fact a significant number of those being accredited (particularly out of non-North American locales, but it happens here too) are "paper PMPs" who learn enough to pass the exam but in reality have little to no project management experience or knowledge. Recruiters and hiring managers know this and have adjusted accordingly; you won't get a PM job just for having a PMP.

So while it is absolutely nice to have, there's no need to rush into getting it if you don't really have the experience or knowledge. If this is your situation, you may wish to look into the CAPM (Certified Associate in Project Management) designation, which does not require any PM experience, but you do have to take a course and write an exam that's similar to the PMP exam. As a hiring manager I would be more impressed by someone who did this and intended to accumulate hours and honestly work his way up to PMP, than by someone who went and got a PMP that I would be able to tell, by lack of experience and/or knowledge, was pretty obviously bullshit.

Hope this helps.

TL/DR PMP'n ain't easy but it's necessary

[Cos]

^^ Great post man. I can vouch 100% for what you are saying. What industry to you practice in? Finance/IT I bet?

One other thing I should mention. PMI is very IT based. A lot of the courses and articles are written based on IT. If you are in construction, PMI stuff is a little strange.

However Project Management is supposed to be cross industry. The tools/techniques are supposed to be universal. The biggest thing you need to know is when the project team is BS'ing you.

[FraserB]

I might look into the CAPM once I get my hours up there. Seems like a good place to start.

Cos, since it is mostly IT based is it hugely different? I know you are in the construction side of things like I am.

[Cos]

Originally posted by FraserB
I might look into the CAPM once I get my hours up there. Seems like a good place to start.

Cos, since it is mostly IT based is it hugely different? I know you are in the construction side of things like I am.

I was thinking about doing my CAPM but I havent decided if it is worth it.

The tools and techniques are universal but the examples can be a little funny. One we did in school was we had to build a website for a wine tour company. You had to develop a whole Project Plan for the set up (photos, writing, contracting, etc). It isnt that bad but I would say that out of 500,000 PMP's in the world 300,000 are in IT. I am pulling the number out of my ass but in the company I contract to there are 10 PMP's and 9 are in IT. Only one is in Projects.

[nguyen]

Originally posted by voodoomusic
I am a senior project manager and did my PMP a couple of years ago, have done some other certifications since.

For the coursework requirement (35 hours), I suppose it's possible you could try to kludge together something based on what you took in your undergrad degree—although PMI will tell you it's supposed to relate directly to the project management knowledge areas, and there aren't too many undergrad courses that would do that. Personally I would highly recommend taking an introduction to project management course, which you can usually find through any college or university's continuing/adult education division. I took Foundations of Project Management at U of T and it was 3 hrs once/week for 12 weeks (so 36 hours, about exactly right for the PMI requirement) and gives a solid background in the stuff you're going to need to know to pass the exam.

For the experience requirement I thought it was 4500 hours with a degree (it was for me) or 7500 without, but maybe they have reduced to 3500. You also need to give the date ranges of each project you worked on, and you need at least 36 months' worth of experience—so even if you're a hero and work 3000 hours/year, doesn't mean you can apply after a year and a half. I believe you can go back as much as 8 years to find the required 36 months/4500 hours, so if you've had breaks and stuff in between that's ok.

They do audit people (this happens between submitting the application, and being officially informed that you're now "eligible" to write the exam—once you're declared eligible you have a year to study and write), and from what I've heard they are pretty thorough. On the application they will ask for a fairly detailed description of the kind of work you were doing on each project, and they'll want you to break the tasks down by phases of the project management process (initiation, planning, executing, monitoring/controlling, and closing). You need to have experience in all of the phases before you can write the exam, so if you were executing tasks (say as an IT developer) but never actually planned or closed out a project, you're going to be out of luck. If you don't know much about project management it will be pretty difficult even to complete the application properly.

If they look at what you've submitted and if it doesn't pass the sniff test, they will start looking more thoroughly and phoning all your supervisors. You're right, they probably won't be able to say for sure whether you spent 600 hours vs. 500, but if you say you spent 500 and then your supervisor says it was a two-week project, you're fucked. They can and will ban you from PMI membership (and hence PMP certification) for life.

I don't say all this to scare you, I just think honesty is the best policy. Besides, there are now something like 500,000 PMPs worldwide and hundreds of people are writing the exam every day. Despite what I wrote above, they can't audit everybody, and in fact a significant number of those being accredited (particularly out of non-North American locales, but it happens here too) are "paper PMPs" who learn enough to pass the exam but in reality have little to no project management experience or knowledge. Recruiters and hiring managers know this and have adjusted accordingly; you won't get a PM job just for having a PMP.

So while it is absolutely nice to have, there's no need to rush into getting it if you don't really have the experience or knowledge. If this is your situation, you may wish to look into the CAPM (Certified Associate in Project Management) designation, which does not require any PM experience, but you do have to take a course and write an exam that's similar to the PMP exam. As a hiring manager I would be more impressed by someone who did this and intended to accumulate hours and honestly work his way up to PMP, than by someone who went and got a PMP that I would be able to tell, by lack of experience and/or knowledge, was pretty obviously bullshit.

Hope this helps.

TL/DR PMP'n ain't easy but it's necessary

Really good post, good insight hearing from someone with their PMP experience. Basically what i do at my job is pretty dead-end for the time being. It's just a desk job and i look over orders and make sure they're shipped on time and rush orders that need to be rushed, expedited, freighted, etc. I also take phone calls and tell people how much the cost will be on everything. it's semi-warehouse but i sit in the office part of the building.

I talked to another person here that also has her PMP and she stated that you could break up some of the requirements, such as "closing the task" and translate that to, finishing up the order and filing it away - Is this true?

Also, good to know that they give you a 8 year interval, that makes it more clear. I thought it was like school where you had to officially sign up, enroll in classes, then go on a "co-op" type of ordeal where you're monitored while you work.

I think i will go the CAPM path, and then work my way up to PMP. My dad just sees how his friend has his PMP and is pretty well off. He just wants the same for me. Wants me to take classes then start recording my hours ASAP. Guess he doesn't see the middle steps to take to get there.

One last thing, i understand for the CAPM you're suppose to have 23 hours of project management education...these would be the same classes as the ones MRU or Grant Macewan offers for the PMP would it not? or two totally different things?