Attawapiskat Crisis

[SKR]

Originally posted by Cos


Hutt colonies are far from classless. There is lots of politics and power within the colonies. You just dont see it on the outside a lot.

I used to a lot of work for colonies and there is definitely a pecking order.

That's not what socialism is, or what is being discussed. The issue is whether or not a socialist system suppresses the desire to succeed. I'm saying that you can't write it off when clearly there are circumstances where it does work.

Of course it's not working with the reserves, that's not something I'm arguing. The difference between one and the other is the size (reserves are on a national scale, whereas a colony is a few hundred people) and Hutterites are driven by faith. I'm aware that the two can't be directly compared.

I don't want to get into a big fuckfest about socialism vs. capitalism, I just want to explain why I don't think the blame can be entirely put on socialist programs. Not giving them free money would solve the money problem alright, but the real problem is that these groups of people aren't contributing.

If we stop giving them money, they're likely not going to treat that as a wake up call to get up and contribute. They're still going to be brokedick, and we'll end up paying for them anyway. There needs to be some goal for them to work towards before they'll start to put out. Cutting off the cash is part of that, but not all of it.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by 5.0


Now add that to what your average household income in Canada... $74,700(2009) combined income, equals $84,031, that is after tax as well.

Now I know the opportunities out there are not as great, but it's time these people start contributing to our country...

That land is yours, great. Make something out of it instead of squatting on your own property taking handouts from the tax payers of this country.

I would argue that the white man is squatting on the native's property. Perhaps it is just me, but I think the country was in a lot better shape from an environmnental perspective before whitey showed up with his machines and pollution.

[5.0]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross



I would argue that the white man is squatting on the native's property. Perhaps it is just me, but I think the country was in a lot better shape from an environmnental perspective before whitey showed up with his machines and pollution.

I would argue that they agreed to let us stay, so tough break...

[Ryan Shawcross]

They agreed to let us stay on a series of conditions, many of which we have failed to meet as evidenced by the current crisis in this particular reserve.

[5.0]

There comes a point when some promises need to be broken. It is obvious in this case that they are irresponsible with the money that they have been given, as evidenced in many other cases. It's time for them to stand on there own feet and adapt to the world around them. The past cannot be changed...

I do support the funding that they receive and believe it should continue but only if it is managed in a way that is acceptable and fair, not only to their own people but to the citizens of Canada who support them. That will not happen without intervention of us whities.,

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
They agreed to let us stay on a series of conditions, many of which we have failed to meet as evidenced by the current crisis in this particular reserve.

Your actually retarded aren't you.

I officially can say I smell a troll here. This guy spews random shit out of his ass with no support for it.

Oh and environmentally better before the whitey came along? I am starting to think your a native myself...because with the crap you post your must be drunk or high on something LOL. If the "whitey" didn't come along...who else would have? Americans eventually move north and slaughter all the natives like in the USA? (my opinion would have been better to that then where we are now) How about other Europeans coming over? The French, Russian, Spanish....? The fact is Canada was going to be colonized by someone...Britain just made it here first and bent over for their future generations to be fucked by the natives instead of doing what any logical thinking country would do. I don't understand any of your points...because frankly...they are all retarded with no support or evidence.

[Sugarphreak]

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[hampstor]

I would say it's 2 factors, one external and one internal to the individual

The external factor: I wouldn't say that the socialist-ish system we have setup for the First Nations suppresses their desire to succeed. I would say it removes incentives for them to succeed instead. The reason I believe this isn't the sole factor is because everyone has different incentives to succeed. While it may rob some people of their incentives, there are others who are incented in different ways and find a way to succeed. With such a disproportionate number of reserves in the condition they are in, I find it difficult to say this is the main factor.

The internal factor: for most of us, we have a desire to succeed in everything we do. However with the first nations, I would say the prolonged abuse has significantly reduced that desire to succeed. Prolonged abuse significantly changes people and I would imagine many would have a 'failure' and fearful mentality. The "can't" vs. the "can" mentality so to speak.

Compound those 2 factors together and you have the makings of a very depressing person. I would imagine this person would be very prone to: poverty, suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, and abusing others around them.

[SKR]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I don't really get your reference to hutterite colonies, they are self sufficent and do everything for themselves. It isn't like they are getting government support. From what I understand if you live in one of those colonies, you work your ass off... they don't just float you along.

I strongly disagree, any system where it allows the majority of people to stop working/contributing to society and recieve external support is doomed to failure.

Short version: I think I misunderstood your posts, and was arguing a point that was never made.

Long version: Look at a colony as an enclosed system, and look at Canada as an enclosed system. The colony provides for members that don't or can't contribute, and Canada provides for members that don't or can't contribute (the natives in Attawapiskat, in this case). That's how I'm making the connection. It's just a ridiculous difference in scale.

Anyway, I've been taking your posts to mean that social programs that give people a free ride, will bring the whole system down. And why I brought up the Hutterites was, if that was true, then the colonies would collapse. Which they don't. They're absolutely able to survive while sharing resources with everyone. I thought you meant that giving money to the natives would create social problems in the Canadian population as a whole, but in your last post I think I see that you didn't mean that.

So yeah. This was a long, drawn-out process for nothing, wasn't it?

[Sugarphreak]

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[Antonito]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


complete and utter horseshit

What the fuck? Seriously, What. The. Fuck? You're going to represent the history of natives as a drunken retirement home? Are you playing stupid or are you really this ignorant?

Ok, assuming you are simply ignorant, I'll put this into context for you, and I'll even use your handy dandy analogy so it's easy to follow along:

Say for instance if Red Deer was invaded by Calgarians and some of the locals murdered and the rest were removed from their homes to the outer limits of town, their jobs taken away, and a treaty signed under the threat of extermination. In exchange for not fighting back they are given some money but are also treated like sub-humans

First thing that happens... without jobs to go to (in this case jobs represent the natural resources that natives used that were hunted/used to extinction by settlers) depression sets in. Most interactions with Calgarians are bitter affairs and often end with Red Deerians arrested. Alcoholism begins

The negatives start to come out soon after that. Calgarians are sick of the Red Deerians causing trouble and being drunk. They decide that it is their duty to God to educate the Red Deerians

Luckily, religion to the rescue! Calgarians go into Red Deer homes and take the children under threat of prison time to the parents.... we all know how this ends. (fucking L O L at completely glossing over this by the way, very classy)

Given enough time, the city would become a crime ridden shit hole... people there would be uneducated, spiritually/mentally/physically broken, addicted from birth to drugs/alcohol, justifiably untrusting of outsiders and unable to give up the free retirement pacakge. How could you ask them to after suffering through so much crap due to something that was so well intentioned. Sound familiar?


Given proper context, would you still say it was the free money that caused the problems?

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Antonito
Given proper context, would you still say it was the free money that caused the problems?

Yes, because it robbed them of their motivation to do things for themselves. The moment they signed the treaties and started getting regular payments was the moment their society started to decline. History shows that a decadent society inevitably falls into decay and self destructs. The reserves just made it happen far faster because they're essentially social pressure cookers.

You're also missing about 150 years of history in your contextual example. 150 years of them making the choice to stay on the reserve and keep taking the money vs going out and making their own way. There is always exceptions too. Some who break out of that society and go their own way, but the vast majority simply have no desire to better themselves. Why would they? They're never forced to grow up, like little kids who get everything, or tantrum when they don't.

I realize this is a simplistic view to a complex problem, but that old cliche is still around for a reason.. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and he'll never go hungry again. Unfortunately, you can't make him go fishing when he knows he just has to sit around and the fish will fall into his fridge without any work at all.

[LollerBrader]

Originally posted by Antonito

Given proper context, would you still say it was the free money that caused the problems?

Whitey just loves to say that shit. I've got white family members that say the most ignorant shit about natives... that same shit... "Lazy... free money".

It's ignorant and oversimplistic.

Good post, antonito.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by codetrap


Yes, because it robbed them of their motivation to do things for themselves. The moment they signed the treaties and started getting regular payments was the moment their society started to decline. History shows that a decadent society inevitably falls into decay and self destructs. The reserves just made it happen far faster because they're essentially social pressure cookers.

You're also missing about 150 years of history in your contextual example. 150 years of them making the choice to stay on the reserve and keep taking the money vs going out and making their own way. There is always exceptions too. Some who break out of that society and go their own way, but the vast majority simply have no desire to better themselves. Why would they? They're never forced to grow up, like little kids who get everything, or tantrum when they don't.

I realize this is a simplistic view to a complex problem, but that old cliche is still around for a reason.. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and he'll never go hungry again. Unfortunately, you can't make him go fishing when he knows he just has to sit around and the fish will fall into his fridge without any work at all.

I didn't miss the 150 years at all:

without jobs to go to (in this case jobs represent the natural resources that natives used that were hunted/used to extinction by settlers) depression sets in. Most interactions with Calgarians are bitter affairs and often end with Red Deerians arrested. Alcoholism begins

I'm quite certain that robbing the natives of the ability to do things for themselves is what robbed them of their motivation to do things for themselves.

That was the whole point of giving out money in the first place. Before there was an unstoppable social/political/economic system put in place like there is now, natives going out and 'making their own way' meant significant and often violent clashes with settlers. It was not a matter of the natives choosing between an honest days work and welfare, it was choosing between a nightmarish life and a dependent life.

Given the option between going to war with a group of people that have you outgunned and want everything you have, or taking a handout, which do you think you'd go with? And how would you feel about being limited to those two choices? Depressed? Pissed off?

[msommers]

Antonio, you have any other links/articles like that FAS one you posted. Working my way through it now and it's pretty comprehensive.

Edit: I should have looked around the site.
http://www.ahf.ca/publications/research-series

[Sugarphreak]

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[codetrap]

Sugarphreak, of course he's got his panties in a knot. That's what apologists do. They get all upset and angry and point at past wrongs and say we should all feel guilty for stuff that happened before we were born.

Meanwhile, they continue the racism by not allowing the exploration of solutions to the problem under the guise of protecting the specified group.

[msommers]

While everyone has their opinions, which they're entitled to, how many are experts? I'm mean actually, someone who has done research, observes and trys to recify and establish a solution on a daily basis? I'm certainly not and I'll throw this out there but I bet one person on this entire board MIGHT be. Interest and expertise are vastly different.

This is an incredibly complex issue. Blanket statements just make you look foolish.

[R-Audi]

I think a good question of work ethic would be post secondary education among Natives. It would be very interesting to see what % of the population has actually taken advantage of any of the FREE programs that they are given.

I know back 10 years or so ago, there was one fellow in a BC band that I knew, and he was the very first in the whole band in how ever many years that was actually going to University. It blew me away that no one else had taken the opportunity to get free schooling and try to do something with themselves.

[Sugarphreak]

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