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Thread: Air Canada prepares to lock out pilots Monday

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    Originally posted by kvg


    Being genuine
    Understood.

    Thanks.

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    At AC the bag chuckers and ground crews are one and the same.

    There's not a seperate group of employees just doing pushbacks/tows etc.

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    Lots of misinformation in here...

    Originally posted by kvg
    Why? They did that to save jobs not to be nice, if the stood a chance of staying the same or getting more they would have pressed the issue. AC has such a bad rep because of their employees and they still want a raise
    Yes they did it to save jobs, wouldn't you rather take a 20 percent pay cut rather then be out on the street? I agree that the employee group at AC has made the airline look foolish in the past, however management has a lot to do with it as well. The company is poorly run and that isn't the employee's fault. Unions are also part of the problem here but as the saying goes, the company always gets the union it deserves...

    Originally posted by Type_S1
    I don't understand why pilots think they deserve such great wages...
    Originally posted by Type_S1


    Maybe it is time to get a new job.

    This is the problem with unions...pilots are the biggest crockshit union there is. These guys get paid way to much as it is, all pilots do.

    Go look at how much pilots wages take up on overall spending at an airline...it is ridiculous
    Not really sure where your hatred for pilots comes from, but I'm curious to know.

    At any rate. starting salary at air canada for a pilot is 38xxx per year and for the first two years only sees minimal increases. And those starting out at AC are not the snot nosed kids fresh out of flight school mentioned elsewhere in this thread, they are guys who have put thousands of hours of flying in already, most in their early 30s and have a family, mortgage, car payments etc and have to work another job just to make ends meet. Sure the top end 777 captain makes good money (just over 200 000 after 12 years of service), but guess what, it takes you 30 odd years before you get to that point and by that time you're within 3-5 years of retirement. Judging from most of the 'ballers' here they're already pulling that down and then some in their 30's.

    Pilot pay accounts for less than 2 percent of most airline companies operating expenses, so again not to sure where you are getting your information from, it just sounds like you have an axe to grind for some reason.

    Originally posted by Tik-Tok


    Not just wages, but overall compensation.
    Really? and hows that? What do you do and what do you make?

    Originally posted by Type_S1


    True that. They are extremely overpaid and I think companies need to find a way to change this...wage cuts across industry
    You really do have a hate on for pilots, what is it that you do exactly?

    Originally posted by Xtrema


    Don't compare us to Germans or any airlines outside of north America. Their pay scale is different. How do they compare to US?

    I thought AC pilots make $100k and tops out @ $200k. Sure, at the top end it's 30% less than Germans but it's on par with US.

    Pilots has overinflated worth. Say, if I fire a pilot today, how many are willing to replace him for less?
    Currently lots but you can't just put anyone in the front end of an airliner, they have to know what they are doing. In 20 years however, probably not so much. Pilot training is very expensive, anywhere from 50 000-100 000 dollars depending on what route you take. The payoff is minimal, lots of time spent away from home, doing shitty work, getting paid peanuts all the while having a massive debt hanging over your head that will take 10 years to pay off. People are starting to realize this and there are far fewer people getting their commercial pilots license than even 10 years ago.
    You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.

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    Their captains max out at a minimum of more than $200,000 a year.
    My brain exploded reading that sentence.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
    I have gone above and beyond what I should rightfully have to do to protect my good name

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    You mean some pilots have student loans and don't start out making 100k+, man do I feel bad for being so mean now. I have family in the business and have never met a pilot that makes under $140k and that auto pilot button is really hard to push too. The big problem isn't the profession, but that the union is wanting More money from a company that lost $250m last year.

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    Originally posted by 5.9 R/T
    Lots of misinformation in here...



    Yes they did it to save jobs, wouldn't you rather take a 20 percent pay cut rather then be out on the street? I agree that the employee group at AC has made the airline look foolish in the past, however management has a lot to do with it as well. The company is poorly run and that isn't the employee's fault. Unions are also part of the problem here but as the saying goes, the company always gets the union it deserves...





    Not really sure where your hatred for pilots comes from, but I'm curious to know.

    At any rate. starting salary at air canada for a pilot is 38xxx per year and for the first two years only sees minimal increases. And those starting out at AC are not the snot nosed kids fresh out of flight school mentioned elsewhere in this thread, they are guys who have put thousands of hours of flying in already, most in their early 30s and have a family, mortgage, car payments etc and have to work another job just to make ends meet. Sure the top end 777 captain makes good money (just over 200 000 after 12 years of service), but guess what, it takes you 30 odd years before you get to that point and by that time you're within 3-5 years of retirement. Judging from most of the 'ballers' here they're already pulling that down and then some in their 30's.

    Pilot pay accounts for less than 2 percent of most airline companies operating expenses, so again not to sure where you are getting your information from, it just sounds like you have an axe to grind for some reason.



    Really? and hows that? What do you do and what do you make?



    You really do have a hate on for pilots, what is it that you do exactly?



    Currently lots but you can't just put anyone in the front end of an airliner, they have to know what they are doing. In 20 years however, probably not so much. Pilot training is very expensive, anywhere from 50 000-100 000 dollars depending on what route you take. The payoff is minimal, lots of time spent away from home, doing shitty work, getting paid peanuts all the while having a massive debt hanging over your head that will take 10 years to pay off. People are starting to realize this and there are far fewer people getting their commercial pilots license than even 10 years ago.
    This guy knows what hes talking about, I lol at all this talk of pilots pulling 150+, that is a serious rarity. At my work pilots start in the mid 20s and SLOWLY go up from there. I hear of guys moving up to Jazz and WJ and while the pay is much more reasonable it is still far below a first year truck driver, not much glory in that industry.

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    Originally posted by 5.9 R/T
    Lots of misinformation in here...

    Really? and hows that? What do you do and what do you make?
    If you bothered reading any of the thread, you'd realize I'm an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, and none of my info is wrong, please point out what is.

    I make more than AC mechanics, but less than industry standard (even as far as Canadian AME's go). I don't see what that has to do with pilots being overpaid industry wide. They USED to be worth their price, as they used to actually fly airplanes. Now because of regulations, all they know is how to push buttons and follow check sheets

    The look on our pilots faces whenever I tell them that the autopilot is MEL'd is always priceless... a look of half panic. "OMGGGZZZ I ACTUALLY HAVE TO FLY!!!! FFFFFUUUUUU!!!!"
    Last edited by Tik-Tok; 03-09-2012 at 09:54 AM.

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    Originally posted by Tik-Tok

    They USED to be worth their price, as they used to actually fly airplanes. Now because of regulations, all they know is how to push buttons and follow check sheets

    The look on our pilots faces whenever I tell them that the autopilot is MEL'd is always priceless... a look of half panic. "OMGGGZZZ I ACTUALLY HAVE TO FLY!!!! FFFFFUUUUUU!!!!"
    I said almost the same thing but deleted it, feeling too nice today. Im not an AME but I wonder if we work for the same company, I am in kelowna...

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    The lowest paid guy I was taking about @$140k works @Jazz, poor Jazz pilots

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    Originally posted by kvg
    The lowest paid guy I was taking about @$140k works @Jazz, poor Jazz pilots
    Jazz actually gets paid significantly less than AirCanada. Their wages are what I personally think most pilots should be.

    edit: None of this "work for $30g a year for 10 years on a Caravan/Metro/Kingair, then hit the bigtime" bullshit.

    re-edit: Here's some payscales for other airlines... note the "hourly rate" is very high, but also that they only work avg. 80 hours a month (or whatever it says in the "guaranteed hours" part, below the payscale)

    http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a.../canadian.html
    Last edited by Tik-Tok; 03-09-2012 at 10:23 AM.

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    Originally posted by kvg
    The lowest paid guy I was taking about @$140k works @Jazz, poor Jazz pilots
    Wow, since I know guys at Jazz making half that, thats amazing!

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    Originally posted by rage2

    My brain exploded reading that sentence.
    I'm curious as to why? Care to post your wage for comments?

    Originally posted by kvg
    You mean some pilots have student loans and don't start out making 100k+, man do I feel bad for being so mean now. I have family in the business and have never met a pilot that makes under $140k and that auto pilot button is really hard to push too. The big problem isn't the profession, but that the union is wanting More money from a company that lost $250m last year.
    Then you know a few people (what 1 or 2?) that represent a very small percentage of pilots in the industry. I know exactly 2 who make more than 100 000. Most are less than 60 000.

    I'll address the auto pilot comment below.

    Unions always start off by asking for the moon, in reality they'll settle for status quo, they just don't want to lose any more, especially when management is seen running the company into the ground and getting paid handsomely to do it too. The entire air canada work force could work for free and they'd still be bleeding like a stick pig. This falls on management not front line employees.

    Originally posted by Tik-Tok


    If you bothered reading any of the thread, you'd realize I'm an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, and none of my info is wrong, please point out what is.

    I make more than AC mechanics, but less than industry standard (even as far as Canadian AME's go). I don't see what that has to do with pilots being overpaid industry wide. They USED to be worth their price, as they used to actually fly airplanes. Now because of regulations, all they know is how to push buttons and follow check sheets

    The look on our pilots faces whenever I tell them that the autopilot is MEL'd is always priceless... a look of half panic. "OMGGGZZZ I ACTUALLY HAVE TO FLY!!!! FFFFFUUUUUU!!!!"
    My apologies I missed the post where you mentioned you were an AME.

    What it has to do with pilot wages is that you feel you are qualified to determine what someone else should make as a salary. So everyone here should have a shot at determining yours as well, fair?

    As far as the auto pilot is concerned, it is simply a tool that makes flying easier, like gps, fms, glass, etc etc. The pilots role in the aircraft has changed with advances in technology to become more of a systems monitor, however when something goes wrong you still need a human to sort it out, ie hudson river, sioux city, etc. Would you give up your air tools, electronic diagnostic equipment, computer based tracking software or any other tool that you use to make work easier and or faster without griping about it?

    For the most part I have nothing but respect for AME's. I think they are put through similar shitty working conditions at the beginning of their career just like pilots. Do I think they are underpaid? Not the one's I've had the pleasure of working with, better schedule, better working conditions and pay that was on par with the pilots. However, there are a few out there that hate and or resent pilots and I have no idea why, are you one of those? Perhaps you could explain it?

    Originally posted by kvg
    The lowest paid guy I was taking about @$140k works @Jazz, poor Jazz pilots
    What would be a fair wage then for someone of his experience? and the second question would be why did you pick that number?
    You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.

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    The pilot I'm talking about voluntarily went from AC to Jazz so I don't know how that might have effected his pay.

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    Originally posted by 5.9 R/T
    I'm curious as to why? Care to post your wage for comments?
    It's just a poorly written sentence haha. I pay more than that in taxes alone.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
    I have gone above and beyond what I should rightfully have to do to protect my good name

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    Originally posted by rage2

    It's just a poorly written sentence haha. I pay more than that in taxes alone.
    Ah fuck took me 3 times reading it to figure it out.
    You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.

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    Originally posted by GTS4tw

    Wow, since I know guys at Jazz making half that, thats amazing!
    Based on the pay scale Tik-Tok provided, you know a first officer (not a pilot). From Jazz's pay scale, FIRST year pilot with 80 hours/month would make $74K (more than half that) excluding any sort of bonuses, or the 100% stock purchase match plan they quote.

    I can't believe how much these guys make... Air Canada 2nd year pilot on a 777 with 70 hours a month of work would make $188K!! The pilot on there with the LOWEST experience on the worst paying plane is making $99K/year for working HALF the hours I work. All they have to do is check some sheets, take off, turn on autopilot, land, check more sheets. I'm sure there is a savings plan of some sort on top of that, and ALL THEIR EXPENSES are likely paid for when they travel. These guys are actually COMPLAINING? FML...

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    Originally posted by Feruk

    Based on the pay scale Tik-Tok provided, you know a first officer (not a pilot). From Jazz's pay scale, FIRST year pilot with 80 hours/month would make $74K (more than half that) excluding any sort of bonuses, or the 100% stock purchase match plan they quote.

    I can't believe how much these guys make... Air Canada 2nd year pilot on a 777 with 70 hours a month of work would make $188K!! The pilot on there with the LOWEST experience on the worst paying plane is making $99K/year for working HALF the hours I work. All they have to do is check some sheets, take off, turn on autopilot, land, check more sheets. I'm sure there is a savings plan of some sort on top of that, and ALL THEIR EXPENSES are likely paid for when they travel. These guys are actually COMPLAINING? FML...

    Your using the pay estimator wrong. Like I posted above, 1st year air canada pilot starts at just under 40 000, jazz is the same, west jet is 45ish.

    80 hours a month is calculated "brakes off to brakes on" and does not include any time that the aircraft is not actually moving. Flight planning, dealing with maintenance issues, time spent at hotels and away from home is not paid. Most airlines work somewhere between 14-18 days a month, a typical flying day is 12 hours long (time you show up to the plane to the time you leave it) So average 16 days a month of 12 hour days equals 192 hours a month or 48 hours a week, and that doesn't include time spent away from family in hotels while you're on the road.
    Last edited by 5.9 R/T; 03-09-2012 at 11:24 AM.
    You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.

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    Originally posted by 5.9 R/T



    My apologies I missed the post where you mentioned you were an AME.

    What it has to do with pilot wages is that you feel you are qualified to determine what someone else should make as a salary. So everyone here should have a shot at determining yours as well, fair?

    However, there are a few out there that hate and or resent pilots and I have no idea why, are you one of those? Perhaps you could explain it?
    Supply and demand. Every year thousands of perfectly competent pilots give up their commercial flying dream because they can't afford to work for $30g a year for the first decade of their careers, and then crawl up the ladder after that. Meanwhile (some) complete retards get to stay on because they come from wealthy families who support them the whole time.

    If it weren't for this, you would see thousands of fully capable pilots with enough airtime and experience to take over those large jet jobs in a heartbeat, and those wages would be more reasonable (IMO of course)


    I'm not a pilot hater, and have nothing but respect for competent pilots. I can't tell you why some do resent pilots, I just think they are overpaid for their skill-set, and workloads.

    I'd be all for everyone here determining my wages. I'd love it if everyone who is in a mechancial career (but not in aviation) chimed in. Here's my details.

    - I'm 10 years into my career

    - I have no company paid benefits

    - I have the legal minimum of 3 weeks vacation a year

    - I do have company matching RRSP up to 4% of my paycheque

    - I have flight benefits to only 7 cities in Canada, and can only fly at
    night (only me, not my spouse)

    - I work crazy shift work, for the first 7 years of my career, I worked every single weekend (except vacations of course).

    - Now I work 7 on, 7 off. 2 different shifts, one is 4:00am to 3:30pm, the other is 11:30am to 11pm

    - If an aircraft is AOG (broken and can't fly) I'm expected to work as long as possible to get it back in the air. The longest so far was 32 hours straight, and the worst one was traveling to another city on Dec.23 to replace a jet engine in -40*C windchill with no hangarage

    - 1/3 of my time is spent sitting in a truck bored out of my skull, waiting for the airplane to break.

    - 1/3 of my time is spent troubleshooting problems on the aircraft, routine inspections, repairs, scheduled replacement of parts, and of course greasing.

    - 1/3 of my time is spent on a computer researching future inspections, aircraft snag histories, parts, and signing out my work on the aircraft that legally binds me to any problems with the aircraft. If it goes down due to mechanical failure, you can be assured I will in court explaining what I did on the aircraft while it's determined if it's my fault everyone on the aircraft died. I am legally responsible for every soul on-board in regards to the work that may not even have been accomplished by myself.

    GO!... (and keep in mind what other mechanical career earn, along with their rather normal like shifts)

    (and while I listed out all these things, I'm wondering why I'm so stupid to still be in the industry )
    Last edited by Tik-Tok; 03-09-2012 at 01:41 PM.

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    Originally posted by Tik-Tok

    I'm wondering why I'm so stupid to still be in the industry )
    I ask myself this all the time.

    Recently I saw an ad paying 22g a year in VANCOUVER flying Metros, pretty sure most of us aviation bums all know who this company is.

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    Originally posted by Cooked Rice


    I ask myself this all the time.

    Recently I saw an ad paying 22g a year in VANCOUVER flying Metros, pretty sure most of us aviation bums all know who this company is.
    hmm....lol

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