Air Canada prepares to lock out pilots Monday

[Lanks]

Originally posted by Feruk

Based on the pay scale Tik-Tok provided, you know a first officer (not a pilot). From Jazz's pay scale, FIRST year pilot with 80 hours/month would make $74K (more than half that) excluding any sort of bonuses, or the 100% stock purchase match plan they quote.

I can't believe how much these guys make... Air Canada 2nd year pilot on a 777 with 70 hours a month of work would make $188K!! The pilot on there with the LOWEST experience on the worst paying plane is making $99K/year for working HALF the hours I work. All they have to do is check some sheets, take off, turn on autopilot, land, check more sheets. I'm sure there is a savings plan of some sort on top of that, and ALL THEIR EXPENSES are likely paid for when they travel. These guys are actually COMPLAINING? FML...

Sorry since you clearly know something about this issue, how is a first offer at jazz "not a pilot"? At WJ AC or Jazz everyone in the cockpit is a fully qualified pilot and usually all flying is split evenly(ie first officer does half the flying)

Most pilots hired today at AC (or WJ for that matter where thy start at ~50k) have at least 10 years industry experience and will need at least 25 years with the company to become a B777 captain and achieve the wages you mention above. AC starting pay is 38k, jazz is around 34k and you usually work 16-18 days a month to get in your 80 hours. That is up to 18 days completely away from home for 38k.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Lanks

Sorry since you clearly know something about this issue, how is a first offer at jazz "not a pilot"? At WJ AC or Jazz everyone in the cockpit is a fully qualified pilot and usually all flying is split evenly(ie first officer does half the flying)

I'm sure the first officer is fully qualified as a pilot, just pointing out the pay differences on the link on last page between a "pilot" and a "first officer."

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Lanks

Most pilots hired today at AC (or WJ for that matter where thy start at ~50k) have at least 10 years industry experience and will need at least 25 years with the company to become a B777 captain and achieve the wages you mention above. AC starting pay is 38k, jazz is around 34k and you usually work 16-18 days a month to get in your 80 hours. That is up to 18 days completely away from home for 38k.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...ir_canada.html

Sounds accurate.

You get top rate by year 12. Since noob means 10 year in the industry. Their pay really sucks.

So all that means is there are a lot of pilots and not enough jobs to go around.

[5.9 R/T]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


Supply and demand. Every year thousands of perfectly competent pilots give up their commercial flying dream because they can't afford to work for $30g a year for the first decade of their careers, and then crawl up the ladder after that. Meanwhile (some) complete retards get to stay on because they come from wealthy families who support them the whole time.

If it weren't for this, you would see thousands of fully capable pilots with enough airtime and experience to take over those large jet jobs in a heartbeat, and those wages would be more reasonable (IMO of course)


I'm not a pilot hater, and have nothing but respect for competent pilots. I can't tell you why some do resent pilots, I just think they are overpaid for their skill-set, and workloads.

I'd be all for everyone here determining my wages. I'd love it if everyone who is in a mechancial career (but not in aviation) chimed in. Here's my details.

- I'm 10 years into my career

- I have no company paid benefits

- I have the legal minimum of 3 weeks vacation a year

- I do have company matching RRSP up to 4% of my paycheque

- I have flight benefits to only 7 cities in Canada, and can only fly at
night (only me, not my spouse)

- I work crazy shift work, for the first 7 years of my career, I worked every single weekend (except vacations of course).

- Now I work 7 on, 7 off. 2 different shifts, one is 4:00am to 3:30pm, the other is 11:30am to 11pm

- If an aircraft is AOG (broken and can't fly) I'm expected to work as long as possible to get it back in the air. The longest so far was 32 hours straight, and the worst one was traveling to another city on Dec.23 to replace a jet engine in -40*C windchill with no hangarage

- 1/3 of my time is spent sitting in a truck bored out of my skull, waiting for the airplane to break.

- 1/3 of my time is spent troubleshooting problems on the aircraft, routine inspections, repairs, scheduled replacement of parts, and of course greasing.

- 1/3 of my time is spent on a computer researching future inspections, aircraft snag histories, parts, and signing out my work on the aircraft that legally binds me to any problems with the aircraft. If it goes down due to mechanical failure, you can be assured I will in court explaining what I did on the aircraft while it's determined if it's my fault everyone on the aircraft died. I am legally responsible for every soul on-board in regards to the work that may not even have been accomplished by myself.

GO!... (and keep in mind what other mechanical career earn, along with their rather normal like shifts)

(and while I listed out all these things, I'm wondering why I'm so stupid to still be in the industry )

From my experience those pilots who bail in the first 5-10 years are doing so because they grew a brain, realized how shitty aviation is and how poorly you are treated from management, passengers, and fellow coworkers, and figured out it wasn't worth it. Smart.

What is your current salary?

Sounds like you have it pretty good. Home 99 percent of the time, 3 weeks off a year? wish I had that. Flight benefits on a cargo plane with no security or other passengers to deal with? sounds like a dream! Working overtime when something goes wrong? Sounds like everyone else in this world.

Originally posted by Xtrema


http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...ir_canada.html

Sounds accurate.

You get top rate by year 12. Since noob means 10 year in the industry. Their pay really sucks.

So all that means is there are a lot of pilots and not enough jobs to go around.

Yup, if there were not enough pilots to go around you wouldn't see that type of entry level pay.

I'm not saying I know what a pilot is worth, the sad part of the industry (like most I think) is usually the toughest jobs are the lowest paid, sure if you're lucky enough to make it to 60 years and be with air canada as capt on the 777 your making some good money. Too much? Considering how long it takes to get there and what you have to do I'm not so sure. Keep in mind that these guys have the lives of 300 odd people in their hands each time they take off. You hope that your true value is never tested, as long as everything goes right and the weather is great its an easy job. When shit hits the fan give me the highest paid best pilot there is please.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T

Sounds like you have it pretty good. Home 99 percent of the time, 3 weeks off a year? wish I had that. Flight benefits on a cargo plane with no security or other passengers to deal with? sounds like a dream! Working overtime when something goes wrong? Sounds like everyone else in this world.

I didn't ask your opinion of my job, I asked the rest of Beyond what they would consider decent pay for that kind of job compared to other mechanical fields. Where do you work that you DON'T have the government mandated legal minimum of 3 weeks vacation a year after 5 years?

Funny, I never mentioned cargo either, lol.

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T
Considering how long it takes to get there and what you have to do I'm not so sure.

That's exactly my point. The top end is extremely over paid, and bottom end is extremely underpaid. Does a bus driver make 7x more than a cab driver? Aviation is just plain fucked up.

[5.9 R/T]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


I didn't ask your opinion of my job, I asked the rest of Beyond what they would consider decent pay for that kind of job compared to other mechanical fields. Where do you work that you DON'T have the government mandated legal minimum of 3 weeks vacation a year after 5 years?

Funny, I never mentioned cargo either, lol.



That's exactly my point. The top end is extremely over paid, and bottom end is extremely underpaid. Aviation is just plain fucked up.

No one asked for your opinion on pilot pay but there it is. Still no word on your salary, even a range at your company to see how 'bad' it actually is would be helpful.

If I had been with the company for 5 years than I would get 3 weeks but I'm still under that, so 2 weeks for me.

I'm just guessing where you work based on your posts. KFC in ylw perhaps? May god have pity on your soul if you work for carson.

As for pay, considering AC only has 10-15 777's its not like there's a ton of pilots actually making that top end pay compared to the thousands of other pilots crewing smaller aircraft for significantly less. I think of that type of job like the NHL of our profession, very few people actually make it there, most get stuck in the minors.

You also make it sound like just anyone can become a pilot and if they stick it out long enough they can make the big money flying the big iron. Sorry but that just isn't the case, for every 1 person that actually gets their commercial license and finds a job in this business there are 2 that washed out before completing their training, Some people just don't have the skill set to fly.

[kvg]

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T


What is your current salary?

You keep asking people this, what do you do, what do you make?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T


No one asked for your opinion on pilot pay but there it is. Still no word on your salary, even a range at your company to see how 'bad' it actually is would be helpful.

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T

So everyone here should have a shot at determining yours as well, fair?

People don't need to know what I earn, or even a range, as I would like people with no knowledge of the industry to make their opinions be known, especially those who have the same experience in the automotive and or heavy duty fields (the closest things I can currently think of to my own field)

Just as I'm giving my opinion on how I think the pilots are overpaid, as was in your post, everyone else has a shot at determining mine now.

You challenged. I accepted.

[jutes]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
- I have no company paid benefits

- I have the legal minimum of 3 weeks vacation a year

- I do have company matching RRSP up to 4% of my paycheque

- I have flight benefits to only 7 cities in Canada, and can only fly at
night (only me, not my spouse)

- I work crazy shift work, for the first 7 years of my career, I worked every single weekend (except vacations of course).

- Now I work 7 on, 7 off. 2 different shifts, one is 4:00am to 3:30pm, the other is 11:30am to 11pm

Your benefits suck, your work schedule sucks and your work environment sucks. Why do you stay in this industry? I just hope you make somewhere close to the 100k mark for that garbage. No way in hell I'd leave my career if there is nothing worth while in the civy sector.

[5.9 R/T]

Originally posted by kvg


You keep asking people this, what do you do, what do you make?

I'm not the one commenting on other people's salaries and what they are or are not worth. If you comment on someones worth then you should be willing to post your own up for comment, no?

Originally posted by Tik-Tok



People don't need to know what I earn, or even a range, as I would like people with no knowledge of the industry to make their opinions be known, especially those who have the same experience in the automotive and or heavy duty fields (the closest things I can currently think of to my own field)

Just as I'm giving my opinion on how I think the pilots are overpaid, as was in your post, everyone else has a shot at determining mine now.

You challenged. I accepted.

Fair enough, the only difference is it's quite obvious most people in this thread have no idea what a pilot does on a daily basis and their salaries were posted at the beginning for all to see and comment on.

[max_boost]

Their captains max out at a minimum of more than $200,000 a year.

Originally posted by rage2

It's just a poorly written sentence haha. I pay more than that in taxes alone.

True baller you are raj. You pay more taxes than the gross of the top 1%!

Top 1% gross $196K in Canada.

http://www.torontolife.com/daily/inf...5/almost-rich/

[kvg]

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T


I'm not the one commenting on other people's salaries and what they are or are not worth. If you comment on someones worth then you should be willing to post your own up for comment, no?

You have commented numerous times on pilots salaries and indicated they aren't over paid, but now that I pose your question toward you, you don't wanna play?

Forget the fact that they earn more that a fair wage IMO, do you think the fact that the company that they work for lost $250m last year alone should have to shell out even more money? I as a taxpayer don't want to see our government shell out more money to a poorly run private business that has been a sinking ship for years.

[5.9 R/T]

Originally posted by kvg


You have commented numerous times on pilots salaries and indicated they aren't over paid, but now that I pose your question toward you, you don't wanna play?

Forget the fact that they earn more that a fair wage IMO, do you think the fact that the company that they work for lost $250m last year alone should have to shell out even more money? I as a taxpayer don't want to see our government shell out more money to a poorly run private business that has been a sinking ship for years.

Please show me where I specifically said pilots are not overpaid?

I think this is a poor time for wage negotiation however since whatever agreement they sign will be good for several years an increase is not out of the question, either that or make the agreement for 1 or 2 years at status quo and revisit it when the company returns to profit. Like I said, pilot pay amounts to less than 2 percent of operating expense, so even if they took another 20 percent cut you won't see the benefit as a passenger in terms of ticket pricing.
Of note air canada is not a crown corp any more and has not received any tax payer money for well over 10 years and will not receive any in the futre. So if you think that pilots are overpaid than take a bus or a train. But even with pilots "huge" salaries its still cheaper to travel by air than by those two methods, not to mention safer and faster.

[kvg]

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T


air canada is not a crown corp any more and has not received any tax payer money for well over 10 years and will not receive any in the futre.

Correct they aren't a crown corp, but the have received 100's of millions in loans from the Canadian government in the last 10yrs, and that fine sir is taxpayers dollars that may not get paid back.

[kvg]

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T "Please show me where I specifically said pilots are not overpaid?"


Do the same Show me where I said over paid. I said more than a fair wage If you read my posts I'm complaining about AC employees helping to drive the airline in to the ground.

[captain134]

It seems to me this thread has changed from a lock out debate to a bunch of aircraft mechanics complaining about the fact they chose the wrong career and are jealous of pilots. Anyone else feeling that?

[kvg]

Not really I really don't care how much a union can squeeze out of a company IF it's profitable company and it can afford it. It does sound like Tik-Tok is getting the short straw though.

[captain134]

Of course air canada should not be raising anyones salaries from a buisness point of view. That does not seem to be the topic of discussion at this point in the thread though.

[Lanks]

Originally posted by kvg


Correct they aren't a crown corp, but the have received 100's of millions in loans from the Canadian government in the last 10yrs, and that fine sir is taxpayers dollars that may not get paid back.

100's of millions not paid back eh? Source?

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Feruk

I'm sure the first officer is fully qualified as a pilot, just pointing out the pay differences on the link on last page between a "pilot" and a "first officer."

No that's the difference between a "Captain" and a "First Officer".