Are unions usefull?

[kvg]

After the Air Canada strike thread I thought I would get some opinions on weather people think labor unions are still useful. I personally think they are way past their time of being useful here in Canada at least. I have worked in a union and when I did that I actually found them to be counter productive. My friends and family that have worked and do work for unions have been forced into strikes where even if they get what they want the raise will never make up for their lost wages. I'm really interested to hear what the majority of beyond thinks about labor unions.

[Type_S1]

Unions are completely useless. They make it impossible for corporations to fire retarded employees and raise costs all around.

Why does it seem unions are present in the most unsuccesful industries around? ex. Airlines, manufacturing

Or why are they present in industries where people usually have no real skills? ex. construction, mining etc.

[flipstah]

Unions were useful. I don't think it is nowadays; cuts efficiency.

[vengie]

They WERE useful during the industrial revolution to bring about workers rights etc...

Nowadays they promote complacency and horrible work ethic.

[black13]

Depends.
It stops bully employers to simply fire whoever they just don't "like". Some companies wouldn't care much about safety or equal rights if not for them.
It does cut efficiency and like Air Canada or like the recent Caterpillar incident, employees can sometimes expect they can milk the company for more money when the company just wants to milk them and maximize profit.
I think if the company is run by good management that can treat their employees well then its not needed.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Type_S1
Unions are completely useless. They make it impossible for corporations to fire retarded employees and raise costs all around.

Why does it seem unions are present in the most unsuccesful industries around? ex. Airlines, manufacturing

Or why are they present in industries where people usually have no real skills? ex. construction, mining etc.

Good points.

When I was in my early twenties, I was a member of the CAW in Oshawa, On. Due to the CAW, the typical attitude was, "Do as little work as possible, and soak GM for as much as possible...and possible it was, as the CAW had GM by the balls.

It was also just about impossible to get fired. Shit, you wouldn't believe how many of the line workers were high or half drunk while assembling vehicles.

[flipstah]

Originally posted by black13

It stops bully employers to simply fire whoever they just don't "like". Some companies wouldn't care much about safety or equal rights if not for them.

I think if the company is run by good management that can treat their employees well then its not needed.

Companies that bully their way through usually doesn't last long or has high turnovers, which adds cost and will eventually bring them down.

Solved by the free market. Win.

[swak]

Originally posted by Type_S1
Unions are completely useless. They make it impossible for corporations to fire retarded employees and raise costs all around.

Why does it seem unions are present in the most unsuccesful industries around? ex. Airlines, manufacturing

Or why are they present in industries where people usually have no real skills? ex. construction, mining etc.

How are airlines unsuccessful... It would seem to me that the owner of Air canada is pretty well off.
... and construction = no skills? I beg to differ. Whats the difference between a good plumber and a shit one? maybe skill? (HOWEVER, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, i believe you're referring to general laborers, factory workers, etc... amirite?)

But i do agree that unions are complete and utter bullshit.
a complete waste of money from an employee's standpoint, and as stated screws the company over for having to keep useless employees.
... i got (IMO wrongfully fired quite a few years ago) from a union company... i connected with the union i had paid into about it and they said they couldn't do anything.
*Boss came up with some bullshit reason, Im 110% sure it was because me and him didn't really see eye to eye.

[Darell_n]

Deleted rant....

Unions are only useful if said worker is completely disposable. (like the clear wrap on a roll of toilet paper)

[black_2.5RS]

When I worked at TELUS in their call centre during University - it was awesome and no way I could get that kinda of money without unions. triple time on holidays, 1.5x on Sundays, evening shift bonus, free taxi home after 10pm and a bunch of stuff I can't remember (it's been over 15 yrs since I worked there) - but it was great (as an employee). I'm sure as management, it sucked as it was really hard to fire somebody or discipline without the unions getting involved.

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by Type_S1
Or why are they present in industries where people usually have no real skills? ex. construction, mining etc.

you don't think people in construction or mining have any real skills? that's crazy...

[Cos]

.

[CD007]

Originally posted by Type_S1
Unions are completely useless. They make it impossible for corporations to fire retarded employees and raise costs all around.

Why does it seem unions are present in the most unsuccesful industries around? ex. Airlines, manufacturing

Or why are they present in industries where people usually have no real skills? ex. construction, mining etc.

LOL!!!

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by Type_S1
Unions are completely useless. They make it impossible for corporations to fire retarded employees and raise costs all around.

Why does it seem unions are present in the most unsuccesful industries around? ex. Airlines, manufacturing

Or why are they present in industries where people usually have no real skills? ex. construction, mining etc.

I'm unionized...you saying I have no real skills?

And trust me, when you work for the government, yes you need a union.

My unionized workplace doesn't promote based on seniority...Its competition so there is still a need to achieve everything you can. Seniority only accounts for when you pick vacation time and your work site

[ZenOps]

When times are good, unions are ok.

When real GDP production and growth is negative, unions are not ok.

The whole airline industry is actually a negative GDP, due to consumption of oil at a time when people are not producing enough to cover their consumption. IE: Spending $100 on gas to produce and refine less than 68.5 pounds of copper (the actual value of the US dollar based against a copper to oil ratio)

The pilots will have to fight to keep their jobs, as will any others in fields that require large amounts of fuel to survive. Nasa and the shuttle program was also a massive money spender that had little to no tangible intrinsic benefit. Astronauts are all looking for alternate jobs now.

[Maybelater]

I work with the Teamsters Union and I have thus far failed to see much evidence that Unionization has produced major productivity issues.

We have strict productivity quotas, if you can't consistently make 100% of the quota in your first three months of probation you're dismissed without Union protection. After probation getting below 100% of the monthly productivity gets you a warning, then suspension starting at 3 days and it is around about ten suspension you're dismissed (I've never heard of anyone getting that many suspensions though, they'll just end up quitting because the suspensions will get as high as fifteen day periods without pay).

You could if you wanted and not make your productivity quota and get a long-weekend. But that problem doesn't really happen as a result of the progressive system of suspensions. Sure you can abuse the system, get three day suspensions but if you're legitimately have a bad month and don't make your quota you wasted your three day suspension and are stuck with 5 days without pay.

I suspect if my work wasn't Unionized they wouldn't have such high standards and in exchange would just employ more people for lower pay. But I'd rather work hard and get paid more then take it easy and get paid less.


Imo, people seem to have this attitude that Unions are only formed because people want more money. My Union can't by law just randomly say "WE WANT MORE MONEY". A contract between the Union and the Company is drafted and ratified around every four years, this reflects wage increases (The increases always just reflect inflation, so I don't think its unreasonable to want to protect your buying power). If we were to strike before the contract expired the teamsters would risk legal action for lost profits.

In the past I wouldn't doubt lots of Unionization occurred due to Unions pretty much bribing people with promises of better wages. But in this day and age if a company Unionizes it is total fault of the company for failing to communicate effectively with employees to the point they sought out a Union to fight for them.

Labour union density was 67.5% in Finland, 67.6% in Denmark, and 68.3% in Sweden. In comparison, union membership was 11.9% in the United States and 7.7% in France.

Sweden has decentralised wage co-ordination

Sweden has no minimum wage, the government doesn't need to regulate it because unions have insured that people are getting paid livable wages.

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by TurboMedic


I'm unionized...you saying I have no real skills?

And trust me, when you work for the government, yes you need a union.

My unionized workplace doesn't promote based on seniority...Its competition so there is still a need to achieve everything you can. Seniority only accounts for when you pick vacation time and your work site

What I said was a generalization and I really don't need to go into the details of why MOST(99%) of unions are completely useless.

I'm not sure what you do for a living...but most government employee's don't really have many marketable skills LOL. Look at the f'in 20 guys standing there jerking off on the side of the road, the 2 overweight chicks holding stop signs and the 5 guys on lunch break while one works in "construction" zones. I think government employee's are completely overpaid for the most part considering some of the jobs my friends have and how little they do. There are some however who are genius's I am sure...but they are the .1%'ers.

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by swak


How are airlines unsuccessful... It would seem to me that the owner of Air canada is pretty well off.
... and construction = no skills? I beg to differ. Whats the difference between a good plumber and a shit one? maybe skill? (HOWEVER, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, i believe you're referring to general laborers, factory workers, etc... amirite?)

But i do agree that unions are complete and utter bullshit.
a complete waste of money from an employee's standpoint, and as stated screws the company over for having to keep useless employees.
... i got (IMO wrongfully fired quite a few years ago) from a union company... i connected with the union i had paid into about it and they said they couldn't do anything.
*Boss came up with some bullshit reason, Im 110% sure it was because me and him didn't really see eye to eye.

....Are you serious right now? Go look at how "profitable" airlines are. They are rated in the lowest profitable industries in the world, companies constantly going under and bailout's in the past...I would say they are a pretty terrible industry.

Yes you are right, tradesman were not who I was referring to. Laborers such as warehouse workers have unions...useless people for the most part with no real skills, construction workers(let's go lift things and be useless) have unions, the manufacturing industry has unions with a bunch of individuals who have no real skills. I could keep going.

Instead of having a union why don't employee's get paid piece-rate for manufacturing companies so the people who deserve money get it? Instead unions makes sure employees can slack off and be high/drunk on the job and not get fired.

[Ebon]

Hate unions and would never work for one. If you can't have corporate monopoly, unions shouldn't be able to have a monopoly over the labour in an industry.

[swak]

Originally posted by Type_S1


....Are you serious right now? Go look at how "profitable" airlines are. They are rated in the lowest profitable industries in the world, companies constantly going under and bailout's in the past...I would say they are a pretty terrible industry.

Instead of having a union why don't employee's get paid piece-rate for manufacturing companies so the people who deserve money get it? Instead unions makes sure employees can slack off and be high/drunk on the job and not get fired.

... i just looked into it, and yes, you are right there.
Never realized this ever before. They seem well off from a public eye though. That's all. Just like GM, even though they have been bailed out... They definitely don't show it from a public layman's perspective.

... and i definitely agree again. Union workers are useless to say the least. If successful businesses can make it big without a union, its obvious they aren't needed.
Hell, companies are probably statistically more advantageous without unions (with the exception of the gov't).