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    Default Afghan Massacre - Solider kills 16 Civilians

    I'm interested to see this unfold:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17343437
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/wo...-shooting.html


    A US soldier accused of killing 16 Afghan civilians in a night-time rampage acted alone, US officials say.

    The Pentagon said in a media briefing that the killings, in the early hours of Sunday, were "tragic" but insisted it was an isolated incident.

    The soldier has not been named, but he is reported to be in his 30s with three children.

    Afghan MPs earlier passed a motion saying civilians have lost patience with foreign troops.

    The incident has put more strain on relations between Afghans and foreign forces.

    Anti-US sentiment is already high after soldiers burned some copies of the Koran at a Nato base in Kabul last month.

    US officials have repeatedly apologised for the Koran incident, which sparked a series of protests and attacks that killed at least 30 people and six US troops.
    And some EXCELLENT commentary from our own Matthew Good:

    https://www.facebook.com/#!/matthewgoodmusic
    It left the base in the middle of the night. It didn’t walk far – just 500 yards – to two nearby villages, Alkozai and Najeeban. There, it entered three houses and began.

    In all, 16 were killed and five wounded, the majority of them women and children. At least three young children were shot at point blank range in the head. In one home alone, 11 were killed, their bodies set alight.

    I refer to... the American soldier, presumed at present to be a staff sergeant, as “it” because referring to him in any other way would be to suggest the presence of humanity. In truth, the investigation that is presently underway has not concluded that it was a single soldier, as there have been accounts by locals that multiple individuals may have been involved, including Afghan police forces.

    My brother and I were talking about it this afternoon. He’d been monitoring the story and was shocked to read comments left by readers on various sites defending the presumed lone soldier – that his actions were the result of stress, depression, frustration, or a combination of all three. Sociopathy, my brother noted, was not among the possibilities discussed.

    He then paused and touched on something that many people don’t like to discuss, nor admit to – that many, despite outward impressions of equanimity, view those in such parts of the world as lesser beings.

    I would like to say that I offered a counter argument, but my brother was right. Over the last decade, the worth of human life in such places has been overwhelmingly marginalized. Prior to that, the inhabitants of numerous nations subjected to gross injustices and brutality were simply ignored.

    I have said it a thousand times, so one thousand and one can’t hurt. Prior to 9/11, what did the world, and the vast majority of its inhabitants, care about the plight of the Afghan people? They simply didn’t. The cause of Afghan women was on not on our radar, and no one cared that its people lived on less that $2 dollars US a day – a situation that has not improved after 10 years of occupation, and one that is prevalent in many nations besides.

    When the United States was in bed with the Hussein regime, what did the people of the US or Canada care about the fate of the average Iraqi? Truth be told, during the entire Iraq war what did we really care about their well being? More than 2 million of them were displaced, the country fractured, and an untold number killed. Occupational forces would walk out of Iraq to pipe and drum music, victory claimed, leaving behind precisely what the majority of regional experts warned would happen years earlier – the creation of a sectarian maelstrom that would rip the nation apart.

    Did those same voices support the tyranny of the Hussein regime? Of course not. But while the majority were willingly blind to the fact that the US was looking to remove one of their old assets, just as they had in Panama, those marginalized voices pointed out that the West provided Hussein the political capital that he needed to remain in power and the heighten resolve to comfortably abuse it. The sanctions that followed, meant to punish his regime, ended up punishing the Iraqi people instead – causing the estimated deaths of some 1 million of them – or a sixth of all those eliminated in Nazi camps during World War 2.

    The war that raged in Central Africa for 20 years – and which, in parts, continues to this day - has cost the lives of more people than any other conflict besides the great wars. As is always the case, when innocents were being slaughtered in Zaire, what was the perception of the average North American? There wasn’t one – because it didn’t matter to us. Upwards of six million civilians alone would be lost and the closest that we have come to even scratching the surface of its true horror has come by way of a viral video years too late and devoid of context.

    While some 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus were slaughtered in 100 days in Rwanda, the world’s focus was on the Balkans. White people being killed after all. The UN would abandon Rwanda, though thanks to the stubbornness of a Canadian general that refused to follow orders, more than 30,000 Rwandans were saved from the machetes and rape camps of the Interahamwe. Even so, that man would be tormented for years by what he felt was his failure to do more, and subjected to a smear campaign by the UN itself.

    We do not act for the betterment of others. More so, we never act for the betterment of those we privately, and quietly, view as expendable – not unless there is something in it for us. That precedent, unfortunately, has a back story that is entirely steeped in usury.

    Most of you are obviously familiar with the term “Third World”. Its origin comes from Cold War nomenclature to define those nations that held non-aligned positions regarding the capitalist doctrine of the West and Soviet Communist doctrine. Given that many of those nations were poor, the term eventually became used to stereotype such nations despite the fact that a litany of them were ensnared by Cold War divisionism.

    In the case of many regions that are currently considered Third World, or part of the Developing world, all have histories replete with colonial interference and exploitation. As colonialist doctrine collapsed, it was replaced in most places by neocolonialist doctrine – simply another way to capitalize on such nations while allowing them to labour under the misconception that they truly governed themselves. Economically, they were unable to succeed, so what began centuries prior as outright political control was transformed into something far worse – dependence on those that had once controlled them, or others that could offer native governments what was required, to achieve stability. In many cases, that meant guns rather than infrastructure, bullets instead if schools.

    So we sat back and further exploited others through economic entrapment while caring nothing about political landscapes – that is, unless they threatened our interests (under the specter of fear depending on the era). In such cases, tales were spun and those that we needed gone were removed and someone willing to play ball coincidentally popped up. In some cases, we didn’t have to do any work – as various post colonial regimes were smart enough to know how to play the system and use it to their advantage – which we willingly allowed them to do as long as there was something in it for us. East Timor is a prime example.

    Conflicts may have raged around the world because of the rise of such governments and the strongmen at their helms, but never lose sight of who has been responsible for arming them, who has supplied the tools, and then sat back and waited for outcomes. And in doing so, think rightly about what such nations outwardly claim to stand for.

    The entire modern history of European peoples, and their descendants, is replete with the pervasive, yet unspoken, understanding that everyone besides is of less worth. Our collective history is built on that premise and it has been one of the most significant factors in our prolonged impact on global affairs. And it is by no means a new phenomenon. It dates back centuries.
    Last edited by zipdoa; 03-12-2012 at 11:43 AM.

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    When I first read the story this morning, my inital thoughts were "It was a set up".

    As in a group of soldiers wanted to seriously fuck the staff sergeant, so they all show up, kill some civilians, ditch the guy and leave him walking back. Who knows what for.
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    Ahem, just so there is not confusion for those that won't read....

    AMERICAN soldier leaves base early morning and goes on a killing spree. Murders women kids.

    Whitehouse calls incident "unfortunate"

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    ...
    Last edited by Sugarphreak; 07-09-2019 at 02:47 PM.

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    Originally posted by Sugarphreak


    When I first heard this on the radio this morning I thought "Toma is going to post this on beyond with a bunch of anti-Canadian/American rhetoric"... just surprised it took so long.
    Did you read everything I posted?

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    Another nail in the coffin for the US. They are digging quite the grave for themselves...

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    That's pretty disgusting.

    They should take that guy, strip him naked, and drop him in the middle of one of those 2 towns and let them deal with him.
    Vettel's #1

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    Afghan people need to rise up and rebel against the occupation of foreign soldiers.

    MSNBC military analyst Gen. Barry McCaffrey (Ret.)
    We're dealing with an Afghan government that is corrupt and incompetent and not in control of it's own police and military...
    Pot? Kettle?
    Last edited by Modelexis; 03-12-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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    Originally posted by CapnCrunch
    They should take that guy, strip him naked, and drop him in the middle of one of those 2 towns and let them deal with him.
    Doubt that'll happen. They'll ship him back to the USA (as NATO countries prosecute their soldiers at home), he'll plead temporary insanity, and be out in a couple years. Protests to follow will kill another 50 people. My prediction anyway.

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    Pfff this happens a few times a year within the states itself...

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    I don't see the problem, isn't this the result of training someone to be a killing machine? You can't train someone like that and then tell them, "Okay, go now and kill these people over here but don't kill these over here." It's like training a pibull to fight in a ring and then letting him loose in a nursery, what do you think will happen?
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    Originally posted by Mar
    I don't see the problem, isn't this the result of training someone to be a killing machine? You can't train someone like that and then tell them, "Okay, go now and kill these people over here but don't kill these over here." It's like training a pibull to fight in a ring and then letting him loose in a nursery, what do you think will happen?
    I didn't know they were trained to kill innocent women and children...
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    Originally posted by Mar
    I don't see the problem, isn't this the result of training someone to be a killing machine? You can't train someone like that and then tell them, "Okay, go now and kill these people over here but don't kill these over here." It's like training a pibull to fight in a ring and then letting him loose in a nursery, what do you think will happen?
    Well sure, massacre women and children. That's what soldiers are trained to do.


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    For fuck sakes just get the fuck out of afghanistan already
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    Originally posted by LadyLuck


    I didn't know they were trained to kill innocent women and children...
    Do you think they can really tell the difference like you and I? The human brain can only be stressed so much before it snaps, they witness and live things we can't even fathom, things that shock us are images they see every day. When the local townsfolk that you're there to protect are spitting on you and blowing up your friends I am not at all surprised if it causes you to go on an aggravated rampage against said townsfolk.

    I grew up with a couple of guys that served on multiple tours over there, I've never seen one human being snort so much cocaine in my life.
    Originally posted by Go4Long
    or else what? you'll turn on the caps lock?
    you do realize this is the internet right? lol
    Originally posted by rob the knob
    mar, you are good guy at heart
    you must realize your limitations
    then you will be happy if you fine place in live
    Originally posted by blitz
    Jesus man, I know you like Transformers, but you need to get out more. No one should get this upset over a movie based on children's toys.

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    Originally posted by Mar
    I don't see the problem, isn't this the result of training someone to be a killing machine? You can't train someone like that and then tell them, "Okay, go now and kill these people over here but don't kill these over here." It's like training a pibull to fight in a ring and then letting him loose in a nursery, what do you think will happen?
    Wrong.
    It's like a German Shepherd in the K9 unit that you trained to either attack or hold back on command that disobeyed your orders. If that happened, you'd put it down.

    But Soldiers are soldiers. Not dogs. Nonetheless, the closer analogy would be the K9 unit as opposed to a gladiatorial pit bull.



    I'm not really sure what the full intentions of your comments were. This goes for all the other similar comments I have seen before that sound like apologists for numbskull soldiers who fucked up, went amok, or are just plain dickheads: Being a simple short comment, I'm not sure whether it has sarcasm or not. But, since it almost always happens with every post concerning militaria, I am nonetheless taking the position against those who excuse away such behaviour.

    I've been in the Canadian Army - Infantry. Though I never got deployed overseas, being that I spent my four years in between the deployment in the Balkans and this one in Afghanistan (shit... I'm old eh?)

    Off the bat, I could tell you right now that no, we were not trained to be automatons, nor were we brainwashed (if such a thing, as it occurs on sci fi/action films, exists) nor were we ever really truly trained to be killing machines. Trained to kill? YES. But not as machines. It's weird, but even though I'm proud to have been in the Military, I feel certain people - those who have no experience being in it in particular - overrate these aspects.

    Yes the training, the routine, the hierarchy, and anything and everything that you'd come across in Basic and the Trades Qualification Training (which for me was Infantry as I said) is regimented and structured in order to produce the best possible kind of person who can fulfill that job. And I stress job, because that's what it becomes. A job, a duty, a sworn allegiance you must fulfill under oath.

    At least that's the practical view. Sure, the oath part romanticizes things a bit and puts a bit of gravity in it, perhaps even a bit of nobility where the traditions reminiscent of ancient knights sworn to duty. But the practical offshoot is that they - and at one point I - was legally bound to the job. These guys swore to fulfill the duties of a soldier and conduct them in a certain manner that is... well, soldierly. I know.. it's bad to use the adjective derived from the noun... BUT! The bottomline is that it's a really strict code of conduct. Some of them assinine like "sensitivity training" - even I as a non white immigrant Canadian thought that whole shit was pointless. But some of them are totally cool and part of the whole package of "how to fucking totally own the enemy without making things worse". These things include ROE's, code of conduct with civilians, handling of prisoners... among numerous other things... everyone complains about them, but there is a practical offshoot in that warfare has now changed.

    It's not just about destruction anymore, it's about conducting yourself properly because everyone's watching. The burning of the Koran, the pissing on the corpses, and now this... do you honestly think you're going to win conflicts this way? See, my accusation to commenters like you is that you have this fantastic view of war: Some people view it as this total and absolute arena where who beats the other to submission wins. Such conflicts just don't happen anymore. Or at least we haven't been in one in a long time, and more importantly, this Afghanistan conflict is not that.

    On Brainwashing:
    Whatever any military does to train it's people, it does so for a reason in order to achieve an effect. However, should you ever join any army, you'd be surprised how these things are not really kept secret. One of the unoffically required readings for my Infantry Platoon (meaning it was the W.O's idea, and not in the doctrine) was "On Killing: The Psychological cost of learning to kill in war and society".

    I can't speak for all the armies of the world - whether they are as intellectual as the Canadian Army - although I suspect other western armies are the same and hence this post discussing an American soldier's conduct. Sure, some things, if you ever bring them to civilian life, would be completely off the fucking wall. In the military context though, it's just team building to the extreme, or coping with difficulty amped up, or perhaps the one that civvies often latch onto as though it were the be all and end all of training... getting rid of flinch... AKA eliminating hesitation when it comes time to kill someone.

    I admit, the training does incorporate this in both subtle and non subtle ways. From targets with faces, human silhouettes, etc... to even dehumanizing the enemy via labels (WWII had Krauts, Cold war had Russkies.... now we have.. something else, depending on where the deployment is ). In modern conflict however, such things are now informal and discouraged by the higher ups for... well optics and public relations stuff. Nonetheless, I would concede that creating a villain is essential and making the bad guys seem really super bad is important.

    Yet, at the same time, this does separate the combatants from the civilians in that, "there are people you have to kill, and there are people you cannot kill according to orders". Which you are, I repeat, sworn to fulfill and protect.

    I just reread all that and this has now gotten too long.

    Anyway, I shall wrap up now. The bottomline is that you civvies are far more forgiving to these fuckers who go amok. Express compassion if you must, "oh he snapped, must've had too much". But at the same time, so many others didn't, so don't ever ever excuse such acts. And I say this not to be a bleeding heart, but just to be fair to so many others who did not snap. I totally agree: War is hard, harsh, and fucked up. You'd be a sociopath not to be affected. We should be more hesitant sending the best of our strong and young to do such acts. Yet some people hold it together just enough that I'd rather commend them than excuse those who didn't.
    Last edited by randedge; 03-13-2012 at 12:40 AM.

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    Originally posted by Toma
    Ahem, just so there is not confusion for those that won't read....

    AMERICAN soldier leaves base early morning and goes on a killing spree. Murders women kids.

    Whitehouse calls incident "unfortunate"
    "This is what democracy looks like".

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    Originally posted by LadyLuck


    I didn't know they were trained to kill innocent women and children...
    I always laugh at people who say they want to become a solider so they can help people and save lives.

    If you really want to save lives, become a fucking doctor.

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    Default Re: Afghan Massacre - Solider kills 16 Civilians

    Originally posted by zipdoa
    What's up with that kid's feet?
    Originally posted by t_soarer
    ....can anyone say "retarted"?
    Originally posted by leftwing
    no more retarted 18 year old girls who fail out.
    Originally posted by benyl
    The english language is retarted...
    Originally posted by Maxx Mazda
    Stanced cars look retarted anyways.

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