Idle No More protests target bridges, roads across Canada

[Maxx Mazda]

The natives have MORE freedoms and opportunities than any other Canadians. Want to get a degree? It’s paid for. Want to better your life in any way? There are tools and luxuries afforded to natives to achieve that, which are unobtainable for every other Canadian without a status card.

Sorry gwill, but you don’t really have a leg to stand on here. I spent over a decade working on reserves in northern Canada, with many different bands of Indians, and they have every opportunity to leave and better themselves if they want to, all courtesy of the Canadian taxpayers.

They fight with each other, their culture is one of violence and substance abuse. It’s not a race issue, it’s a culture issue.

[Buster]

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Such a sad thing to see. We all have these moments of rationalization. I remember when you were an idealist who was willing to pay any price. But it always seems to come down to money, doesn't it? Is there a more rational word when it comes to money than "reasonable?"

I think to not have racist policies is worth any price. I just don't think unwinding the current segregationist policies which you favor will actually need to cost that much.

Out of curiosity, at what price would you consider desegregation worthwhile? Your main concern seems to be the cost, so I would find it interesting to see at what price you would abandon your racism?

[Antonito]

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Internet Rule: the first person to multiquote probably has the weaker argument.

I assume you both provided some brilliant insight, but multi-quoting posts offends my sense of aesthetics and I don't read them.

Well at least we can be certain that in another few months when this comes up again you'll repeat the same arguments as if this never happened. I have to admit, the added twist of calling other people racist was a refreshing change of pace, so bravo for that hail mary

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I have no idea about any of this. What are the finacial requirements to first nations? I hear this stuff about drinking water, but is it in the constitution? What about social services, policing, housing? What are the financial commitments? Are we meeting them? Exceeding them?

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/just/05.html

The Constitution of Canada includes the Constitution Act, 1867, and the Constitution Act, 1982. It is the supreme law of Canada. It reaffirms Canada's dual legal system and also includes Aboriginal rights and treaty rights.

The treaty rights mentioned establishes that whatever treaties Canada has entered into must be honored or renegotiated. Anything that Canada is providing for natives at the moment has been negotiated for. Many things are in a constant state of negotiation as honoring them would cripple Canada financially, but because of the Act cannot simply be ignored

There are other liabilities where lawsuits could be brought and potentially won due to abuse or incompetence from the Canadian government of which drinking water is one. Drinking water is typically under the control of the Provinces who have all enacted some sort of clean water rules, so if any non-native location had cow shit being poured into the water by farms, the province would step in and fix the issue. Native land is under federal jurisdiction and there is no hard and fast clean water rules at the federal level so they just shrug their shoulders and tell everyone to boil the water. Because the only people this hurts are natives, there is a legal case to be made that the lack of action is bordering on maliciousness.

Canada certainly isn't exceeding their commitments, and many legal scholars would argue that they aren't meeting them either, but that's not a settled fact until the court cases go through, which the government is trying very hard to not have to do.

[Antonito]

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I think to not have racist policies is worth any price. I just don't think unwinding the current segregationist policies which you favor will actually need to cost that much.

Out of curiosity, at what price would you consider desegregation worthwhile? Your main concern seems to be the cost, so I would find it interesting to see at what price you would abandon your racism?

When you have a contract with someone, how much of the compensation that you are due do you typically try to collect?

[kertejud2]

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I think not have racist policies is worth any price. I just don't think unwinding the current segregationist policies that you favor will actually need to cost that much.


Out of curiosity, at what price would you consider desegregation worthwhile? Your main concern seems to be the cost, so I would find it interesting to see at what price you would abandon your racism?

You claim to be rational, yet you think that I support segregation and think that FN hate the segregation they fought to preserve isn't worth that much (which against just further highlights your Victorian white-savior attitude towards this whole thing).

What price is it worthwhile? Literally any price we can afford.

But that isn't the reality. The question is what would it cost.

The head of the First Nations Financial Management Board estimates $500B of economic activity currently operate on lands held by First Nations. Then if you are to believe the Fraser Institute (which I would if I were sitting on the FN side of the negotiating table), there's almost $10B more a year going to FNs than the average Canadian. So there's your starting point. $500B plus $10B a year times however many years they expect Canada to be around. That doesn't even go into the economic potential of the land, or the non-tangible value various bands place on the value of self governance. There might be a bunch of bands that would sell-out for a lot less, but the ones doing well (i.e. Squamish) sure as hell aren't.

Is that number higher or lower than you thought it would be? Hell, as a recent local example, The Tsuu Tina swapped 428 hectares of land for $341M and over 2,100 hectares of other land. What makes you think it couldn't cost that much to get them to give up their land claims?

The country can't write a 13 figure cheque.

[Buster]

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When you have a contract with someone, how much of the compensation that you are due do you typically try to collect?

I have not personally entered into any treaties recently.

[speedog]

Aside from all of this banter, this could all be a as simple as Mr. fucking Trudeau stepping up to the plate and actually being a leader FFS.

[Buster]

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You claim to be rational, yet you think that I support segregation and think that FN hate the segregation they fought to preserve isn't worth that much (which against just further highlights your Victorian white-savior attitude towards this whole thing).

What price is it worthwhile? Literally any price we can afford.

But that isn't the reality. The question is what would it cost.

The head of the First Nations Financial Management Board estimates $500B of economic activity currently operate on lands held by First Nations. Then if you are to believe the Fraser Institute (which I would if I were sitting on the FN side of the negotiating table), there's almost $10B more a year going to FNs than the average Canadian. So there's your starting point. $500B plus $10B a year times however many years they expect Canada to be around. That doesn't even go into the economic potential of the land, or the non-tangible value various bands place on the value of self governance. There might be a bunch of bands that would sell-out for a lot less, but the ones doing well (i.e. Squamish) sure as hell aren't.

Is that number higher or lower than you thought it would be? Hell, as a recent local example, The Tsuu Tina swapped 428 hectares of land for $341M and over 2,100 hectares of other land. What makes you think it couldn't cost that much to get them to give up their land claims?

The country can't write a 13 figure cheque.

ahahahhahahahahah.

omg, remind me not to bring you along when I'm negotiating anything.

I was really just interested to see if you actually do attach dollars and cents to your segregationism. But that was just for my lulz.

[gwill]

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The natives have MORE freedoms and opportunities than any other Canadians. Want to get a degree? It’s paid for. Want to better your life in any way? There are tools and luxuries afforded to natives to achieve that, which are unobtainable for every other Canadian without a status card.

Sorry gwill, but you don’t really have a leg to stand on here. I spent over a decade working on reserves in northern Canada, with many different bands of Indians, and they have every opportunity to leave and better themselves if they want to, all courtesy of the Canadian taxpayers.

They fight with each other, their culture is one of violence and substance abuse. It’s not a race issue, it’s a culture issue.

I dont have a leg to stand on because first nations have substance abuse or cultural issues? Sounds like you've got some issues there. All Ive done is make a point to correct people for the beliefs they shared that are ridiculous/wrong or provide a different perspective that's clear most canadians don't have.

For example you think schooling is paid for for first nations. Guess what? That's not actually the case. It may be for some but theres no guarantees.

I'm not sure you should be jealous over some programs that first nations have that others may not. Theyve only had to live in a concentration camp. Go through residential school or deal with the substance abuse/cultural issues that you have seen first hand.

I think I understand your underlying concern that we should all help ourselves with whatever situation we are in. There are definitely options for first nations people that should be utilized if possible. I dont see that as a bad thing.

I suppose 150 years of being discarded and classified as a second class citizen will afford the odd special program.

[gwill]

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Aside from all of this banter, this could all be a as simple as Mr. fucking Trudeau stepping up to the plate and actually being a leader FFS.

trudeau has blamed the rcmp for not acting. His stance released late yesterday was that our govt doesnt direct the rcmp to do anything. I'm sure we will all laugh at that as hes had no issues doing that before.

On the flip side out govt has ended rail strikes in days yet our rail lines have been shut down for longer from the protests. With that said the rcmp need to grow a pair and end the protests if they are illegal.

[Antonito]

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I have not personally entered into any treaties recently.

Never had a job?

[kertejud2]

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ahahahhahahahahah.

omg, remind me not to bring you along when I'm negotiating anything.

I was really just interested to see if you actually do attach dollars and cents to your segregationism. But that was just for my lulz.

I didn't realize we live in a world where land is worth hopes and dreams and not dollars and cents.

Desegregation might be "priceless" (well, a reasonable cost, anyway), but land sure isn't. You're gonna have to pay.

But what does the head of the FNFMB know about dollars and cents and negotiations? He's a second class citizen, not a morally-superior white person like yourself who will tell him what's worth what. They'll gladly give up their land for less than market value because you'll set them straight.

[Buster]

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I didn't realize we live in a world where land is worth hopes and dreams and not dollars and cents.

Desegregation might be "priceless" (well, a reasonable cost, anyway), but land sure isn't. You're gonna have to pay.

But what does the head of the FNFMB know about dollars and cents and negotiations? He's a second class citizen, not a morally-superior white person like yourself who will tell him what's worth what. They'll gladly give up their land for less than market value because you'll set them straight.

My moral superiority is to segregationists and racists - nothing to do with skin color. I do not consider anyone second class based on their heritage or skin color.

You should try not looking at everything through a race lens. You might find it refreshing.

[kertejud2]

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You should try not looking at everything through a race lens. You might find it refreshing.

Just the embodiment of a Basic white person.

[Darkane]

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Well they did the same thing they did everywhere else. The only real difference between Canada, Australia and New Zealand is that more white people moved there than natives so that the natives couldn't really kick the British rulers out like in: India, Nigeria, Fiji, Samoa, Ghana, Jamaica, Kenya, Cyrpus, Botswana, Belize, Malaysia, Singapore, Namibia, among others.

Even the US couldn't do it, and they had God's will on their side when they expanded West.

Cyprus? They’re predominantly white lol.

[ExtraSlow]

I hope you dudes are enjoying this little exchange, because it's long since gone past anything resembling a "conversation" and it now just a bunch of people calling each other racist.

[killramos]

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I hope you dudes are enjoying this little exchange, because it's long since gone past anything resembling a "conversation" and it now just a bunch of people calling each other racist.

ES Has hit the core of the issue, everyone is racist. Some people just pretend to be less racist than other people.

[Buster]

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Just the embodiment of a Basic white person.

oh no, you ruined mah day.

[Misterman]

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You're asking people to sell their Constitutional rights...priceless.

No. We would be asking them to have the same constitutional rights as every one else. Which ironically would increase their quality of life.

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What if fn enforced the treaties that typically cover vast majorities of our large cities across canada? What will that cost the canadian economy if all of a sudden it becomes owned by a first nations band.

Your looking at things from one minor financial angle when it goes much deeper. The treaties are crucial. Look at the blood tribe that won a massive law suit recently that stated their reserve would have covered most of southern alberta.

Theres a lot of unsolved land claims that can be settled by enforcing the treaty or finding a reasonable compromise.

What if the supreme court no longer allowed treaties to be open to interpretation and ever giving more and more when they decide their ancestors thought the treaty meant something else?

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And just to clarify first nations cant own the land they live on in a reserve that's not how it works.

There we go. Now you're starting to get somewhere into understanding the issues with reserves.

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I have not personally entered into any treaties recently.

One thing is for sure. If I do enter into a contract with someone. I don't continually take that person to court when they honor the contract, and claim they ripped me off and I want to re-write the contract.

[ExtraSlow]

And the lights are all on, the world is watching now
People looking for truth, we must not fail them now
Be sure, before we close our eyes
Don't walk away from here
'Til you hear both sides. Oh no.