Idle No More protests target bridges, roads across Canada

[gwill]

trudeau and scheer exchange comments in the house of commons this morning. I was listening live and couldnt help but shake my head. Trueduea offered no resolutions. He didnt call out the blockades for being illegal. He had no timelines or action on things.

Scheer of course points out the illegal activities. Pointe out the laid off workers and all the industries affected. Made it clear a solution or action is needed.

There was obviously a lot more stated but ultimately the liberals dont feel action is needed. I wonder what those out east are thinking as their affected a lot worst then us in Alberta.

[Buster]

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You're focusing on the endpoint you want and glossing over the important parts. Right now you've offered to give the nations nothing, and in return they give up everything else they have.

The Crown "owns" the land (technically they don't, really), but still has to buy it back when they need it. And not in the typical expropriation way, but in very expensive ways (I refer again to the local example of the Ring Road land purchase deal). It's private property unique in the Canadian landscape.

Also thinking locally, what kind of system would be agreed upon where some people get the Grey Eagle Casino land, and others get some random gravel pit in the middle of the reserve? Expand that to the other money-making powerhouses of reserve land (North Shore in Vancouver, the Shushwap holdings in the BC interior) or the political nightmares of places like Awkwesasne, you're not going to get much support. The collective earning and bargaining power of reserve land is worth exponentially more than individual parcels of land in no small part because the land has protection no other private land in the country does. When you consider how many nations are currently involved in legal battles over the actual land they feel treaties (that are Constitutionally protected, mind you) entitle them to, you are going to have a hard time getting much buy-in for what land they'd be getting privatized. That's a big part of what the current issue is about: The land the Wet'suwet'en claim is significantly different from the reserve land they have, and it is buoyed by the fact the land in BC is unceded so it is much more of a grey area of what land you would be privatizing.

I think it's pretty evident you have no concept of the scale of the problem, which is why you're so dismissive about it. It's 634 problems, where you want people to give up something without giving them anything in return.


They don't care about your endpoint. Maybe you should find out what their desired endpoint is.

You presume that the rest of Canada has zero leverage, which is not the case. Canadians simply have, so far, refused to use their leverage.

I'm laying out a pathway that looks at the long term benefits to Canada as a whole, including the current FN. You're looking at the difficulty of negotiating individual land deals. Difficult problems? Absolutely. Solvable problems? Absolutely.

The issue isn't the solvability of the problem, it's the will to solve it.

Any good deal-maker understands that you have to find the pathway which establishes a benefit for both sides currently and in the future. You seem to maintain that this overlap in the venn diagram does not exist, or that it will be "really hard". Boo hoo. Lots of hard shit gets done in this world every day, and every year. You're obviously not the type of person to lead such an effort as capitulation to difficulty seems to be more your style.

[msommers]

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trudeau and scheer exchange comments in the house of commons this morning. I was listening live and couldnt help but shake my head. Trueduea offered no resolutions. He didnt call out the blockades for being illegal. He had no timelines or action on things.

Scheer of course points out the illegal activities. Pointe out the laid off workers and all the industries affected. Made it clear a solution or action is needed.

There was obviously a lot more stated but ultimately the liberals dont feel action is needed. I wonder what those out east are thinking as their affected a lot worst then us in Alberta.

VIA Rail said they were resuming some service between Montreal, Quebec City and Ottawa IIRC. Still, many of the ports are getting clogged up and nearly at capacity. Even BC Ferries are feeling it, trying to setup "protesting areas". I saw a video this morning (admittedly it was Rebel News, ugh) but the guy went around interviewing a lot of people at the protests and naturally maybe 25% have truly done "the research" and most didn't even know what the pipeline was actually carrying

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh59...tWIqDFczxUQhvU

[gwill]

^to piggy back on changing constitutional protections what do you think canadians would want if the govt decided to strip away specific rights of canadians?

In theory if our govt removed the right to peaceful assembly, our right to free speech or the right to protest the blockades could be ended easily.

Would canadians agree to give up their constitutional protections for any reason?

[gwill]

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VIA Rail said they were resuming some service between Montreal, Quebec City and Ottawa IIRC. Still, many of the ports are getting clogged up and nearly at capacity. Even BC Ferries are feeling it, trying to setup "protesting areas". I saw a video this morning (admittedly it was Rebel News, ugh) but the guy went around interviewing a lot of people at the protests and naturally maybe 25% have truly done "the research" and most didn't even know what the pipeline was actually carrying

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh59...tWIqDFczxUQhvU

Hah I hate the rebel. Avoid it at all costs but I've seen a few videos of them mocking the protestors who dont know crap. I've seen other screen shots naming the protestors on wetsuweten territory. Most are from other provinces, united states or further parts of bc.

The protests have been taken over by those who dont give a crap about FN's. I'm not sure I see a good ending for canadian businesses.

[Cagare]

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^to piggy back on changing constitutional protections what do you think canadians would want if the govt decided to strip away specific rights of canadians?

In theory if our govt removed the right to peaceful assembly, our right to free speech or the right to protest the blockades could be ended easily.

Would canadians agree to give up their constitutional protections for any reason?

You don't need to remove rights of Canadians legislatively. It's clearly stated that any of these rights can be temporarily taken away by due process, the courts. Which in this case the courts have ruled an injunction on some of these blockades, which is not being followed by the people protesting, this makes it now illegal. It is not being enforced and the people protesting know this, which further emboldens them to do more with impunity.

This is more about establishing order than it is about anything else. This is sending a terribly poor message to the business community as a whole. This is also looming heavy on other approval decisions currently in process.

Plain and simple the laws need to be enforced. The Liberals like to say that it is up to law enforcement to decide process, but that neglects the fact on who the law enforcement reports to. They have no problem rattling the saber for causes they want to do it for, but choose to remain silent on this.

I get where the police are coming from they don't want another Caledonia or worse situation, but the longer this goes the more likely that kind of stand off will occur.

[gwill]

Your right the rule of law needs to be enforced.

I was just asking buster about what rights canadians wouldnt mind giving up if it meant FN giving up theirs. What if that's what it takes for his solution? Would canadians be willing?

[Cagare]

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Your right the rule of law needs to be enforced.

I was just asking buster about what rights canadians wouldnt mind giving up if it meant FN giving up theirs. What if that's what it takes for his solution? Would canadians be willing?

Fair. I do believe this is going to end really messy if they don't nip it now.

[you&me]

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Your right the rule of law needs to be enforced.

I was just asking buster about what rights canadians wouldnt mind giving up if it meant FN giving up theirs. What if that's what it takes for his solution? Would canadians be willing?

Buster is advocating equal rights for all Canadians, regardless of ancestral heritage or race. As it stands, some Canadians have special rights that aren't extended to the rest of the population; if the goal is equality for all, that's what needs to change.

[msommers]

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You don't need to remove rights of Canadians legislatively. It's clearly stated that any of these rights can be temporarily taken away by due process, the courts. Which in this case the courts have ruled an injunction on some of these blockades, which is not being followed by the people protesting, this makes it now illegal. It is not being enforced and the people protesting know this, which further emboldens them to do more with impunity.

This is more about establishing order than it is about anything else. This is sending a terribly poor message to the business community as a whole. This is also looming heavy on other approval decisions currently in process.

Plain and simple the laws need to be enforced. The Liberals like to say that it is up to law enforcement to decide process, but that neglects the fact on who the law enforcement reports to. They have no problem rattling the saber for causes they want to do it for, but choose to remain silent on this.

I get where the police are coming from they don't want another Caledonia or worse situation, but the longer this goes the more likely that kind of stand off will occur.

Excellent post.

This whole debacle has really shown, nationally, how fragile Canada is. From lack of trade of agricultre and dairy, canola and wheat, to pump station fuel and propane, to manufacturing, legitamite businesses being unable to pay their bills, and potential future trade deals cancelled if Canada is deemed 'unreliable'.......because of an "organized" protesting group...

It's actually startlingly to fully realize how quickly a national crisis can unfold and yet the only response thus far is "lets start some dialogue." And yet when push comes to shove, examples like JWR's case, a seemingly no-brainer win, is sluffed aside and dismissed.

[Buster]

Canada is like a trust fund kiddy. The country has mistaken its good fortune for intelligence and competence.

Canada is now starting to reap what it has sown.

I doubt it is repairable. Canadians don't want to admit that their idealism won't pay the bills for a public healthcare system that costs tens of billions. For that it takes a ton of investment capital and a desire to reward the small segment of the population that has the ability to drive wealth creation.

But those people and that capital will be departing.

[dirtsniffer]

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Also all this stuff about hereditary chiefs seems like bullshit. The only people who should speak for the tribe is the elected council.

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Crystal Smith, the chief counsellor of the Haisla Nation... said the divisions between Wet’suwet’en hereditary and elected chiefs should be resolved internally. Activists like Montilla parrot the line that the elected chiefs are the product of a colonial history and that the hereditary patriarchy is the only legitimate source of power.

(Five of the six Wet’suwet’en bands support the pipeline, while five of the 13 hereditary chiefs oppose it. Two of those five opponents have titles that are disputed after hereditary chiefs Darlene Glaim and Gloria George, who held the titles of Woos and Smogelgem, say they had their status “stripped” and given to two men, Frank Alec and Warner Naziel, because of their support for the pipeline.)

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/jo...box=1582038713

[gwill]

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Fair. I do believe this is going to end really messy if they don't nip it now.

It will be canadas biggest issue over the next 10 years.

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Buster is advocating equal rights for all Canadians, regardless of ancestral heritage or race. As it stands, some Canadians have special rights that aren't extended to the rest of the population; if the goal is equality for all, that's what needs to change.

Is the fight really about equality? Why are those who use this arguement the first to ignore FN history. Their the first to dismiss accountability for our govts. They could care less about FN in general other then they want these so called rights removed.

[jutes]

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This whole debacle has really shown, nationally, how fragile Canada is.

Canada isn't fragile, we are pussies, no one is up to the challenge of making ANY decisions because it will ultimately inconvenience the smallest, yet most vocal, part of the population. How much more dialogue do we need on something that will never go away without drastic action.

[kertejud2]

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You presume that the rest of Canada has zero leverage, which is not the case. Canadians simply have, so far, refused to use their leverage.

Unless Canada is willing to throw the Constitution aside, the leverage is pretty much negligible. You don't have what you think you have.

Any good deal-maker understands that you have to find the pathway which establishes a benefit for both sides currently and in the future.

Then look at it from the other side.

You want them to give up what they have. What are you offering?

[davidI]

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no one is up to the challenge of making ANY decisions because it will ultimately inconvenience the smallest, yet most vocal, part of the population.

Which also happen to be the least productive members of society.

No wonder Canada always ranks so low on productivity measures. Our government bows to the whims of the uneducated and unemployed.

[Cagare]

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Which also happen to be the least productive members of society.

No wonder Canada always ranks so low on productivity measures. Our government bows to the whims of the uneducated and unemployed.

I would say that the most vocal part of the population is both the least productive and most productive members of society. You don't hear about the most productive members of society because they pay for private access to politicians.

[Buster]

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Unless Canada is willing to throw the Constitution aside, the leverage is pretty much negligible. You don't have what you think you have.



Then look at it from the other side.

You want them to give up what they have. What are you offering?

Hard to say how much leverage Canada has - the country is never will to test it.

Why take the Constitution off the table. The country is largely circling the toilet bowl at this point - regional fragmentation, a poor FN policy, a non-representative voting system, a broken executive branch, etc. Most of these would be constitutional issues/solutions at some level.

[gwill]

protest on railroad in edmonton started this morning. CN went to court for an injunction and has served the protestors with it. Meanwhile counter protestors showed up to take down the barricades since police arent doing anything.

Meanwhile in BC yesterday the premiers home had protestors. Police showed up instantly and arrested a few people shutting the protest down.

[Ca_Silvia13]

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Meanwhile counter protestors showed up to take down the barricades since police arent doing anything.

I was wondering how much longer it was going to take for this. Good ole Alberta mob justice