Idle No More protests target bridges, roads across Canada

[Buster]

Yes... Canadians have bought into, and institutionalized, the myth of the Noble Savage.

[kertejud2]

Yet here people were trying to think that the process of getting FN to give up their land and Constitutional rights wouldn't be driven by greed and money, but instead by some kind of morality.

Pick a fucking lane.

[FraserB]

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If these protests kill either project I hope Albertans shut down the trains here in perpetuity

Play the game by their rules. Sea cans across access roads to reserves, negotiate for their removal after a few weeks of zero supplies going in.

[Buster]

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Yet here people were trying to think that the process of getting FN to give up their land and Constitutional rights wouldn't be driven by greed and money, but instead by some kind of morality.

Pick a fucking lane.

only leftists think that morality and economic development are mutually exclusive.

[gwill]

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#testify
My experience on reserves is very similar, regardless of what grate learnt resources like gwill say.

You guys have quite the circle jerk going on over a few bad stories about some indians. It's funny how when some of us mentioned the rape and murder at residential schools it was defended that it was for the greater good. It's odd that discussion on serious first nations issues get deflected, ignored or people pretend they didnt happen yet everyones quick to jump on a bad story that wasnt even witnessed first hand. Weird how this works isnt it?

Seems theres still a second class of people that are easily discarded by many.

And for the record I am First Nation. Treaty status. Treaty 3 area. My "learnt" experience isnt some bs that's made up. I've had uncles/aunts in residential schools in the 60s right up till the 90s. My mom when she was born was taken away from her birth parents as part of the 60s scoop for no reason other then she was born on a reserve to an indian.

I'll continue to correct the posts from a few who continue to make stuff up that isnt correct/true. But hey what do I know?? Its not like I learned this stuff in school.

[ThePenIsMightier]

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... It's funny how when some of us mentioned the rape and murder at residential schools it was defended that it was for the greater good...

As soon as you quote the part where anyone said "the rape and murder at Residential Schools was for the greater good" I'll be listening.
Shall I wait here on the edge of my seat for you to come up with that?
Spoiler alert:
You won't find it, because it's not here.
Instead, you are shouting "racist" at people who don't align with your view and it's pathetic.

[Misterman]

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It's funny how when some of us mentioned the rape and murder at residential schools it was defended that it was for the greater good. .

For the love of Christ. Can you stop pedaling this twisted narrative you've created to try and back up your, holier than thou attitude, towards this issue that you seem to think substituting facts for feelings makes you an expert on.

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It's odd that discussion on serious first nations issues get deflected, ignored or people pretend they didnt happen yet everyones quick to jump on a bad story that wasnt even witnessed first hand. Weird how this works isnt it?

Yes it IS very weird that you instantly deflect and refuse to participate anytime anyone brings up some facts that don't fit your narrow minded inaccurate view of the entire situation.

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Seems theres still a second class of people that are easily discarded by many.

There sure is. It is called the class of unproductive idiots and drug addicts. This "class" of people does not have a skin color though. The fact the a very large percentage of Indians belong to this group seems to be the problem you're taking issue with. And what you're forming a false narrative around to validate your stance.

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And for the record I am First Nation. Treaty status. Treaty 3 area. My "learnt" experience isnt some bs that's made up. I've had uncles/aunts in residential schools in the 60s right up till the 90s. My mom when she was born was taken away from her birth parents as part of the 60s scoop for no reason other then she was born on a reserve to an indian.

Cool story. Does that give you a trump card excuse to be a fuck up now for the rest of your life? Or do you think that maybe you hold some responsibility in shaping your own future?

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I'll continue to correct the posts from a few who continue to make stuff up that isnt correct/true. But hey what do I know?? Its not like I learned this stuff in school.

Using a subjective opinion about something to "correct" people, is the dumbest thing I can imagine from someone trying to formulate a rational argument. Or maybe you're NOT trying to formulate a rational argument at all?

And BTW, just because I used to work at Quick Lube, does not make me a knowledgeable end all resource on engineering of the automobile. So if you think that's a valid reason for anyone to take your opinion as gospel, you should think again.

[kertejud2]

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only leftists think that morality and economic development are mutually exclusive.

This is famously the opposite of what leftists would think. They've killed thriving industries trying to stuff morality into economic development. Worker's rights, livable wages, and all that other nonsense in the name of 'what's moral.'

Have you ever bitched about 'social license killing investment.' That's the idea of somebody merging morality and economic development.


People prioritizing money and power over morality is a tale as old as time.

[Buster]

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This is famously the opposite of what leftists would think. They've killed thriving industries trying to stuff morality into economic development. Worker's rights, livable wages, and all that other nonsense in the name of 'what's moral.'

Have you ever bitched about 'social license killing investment.' That's the idea of somebody merging morality and economic development.


People prioritizing money and power over morality is a tale as old as time.

Economic development is morally superior because it lifts the poor out of poverty. So far, capitalism is the best human invention for economic development.

Ergo, unlocking people currently labeled as FN, and the assets locked up under their feet so that they can "capitalize" on their human (and other) capital, is the most moral way forward. The current system is restrictive, infantilizing, and most importantly strips FN people of one of life's greatest gifts: incentive.

[kertejud2]

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Economic development is morally superior because it lifts the poor out of poverty. So far, capitalism is the best human invention for economic development.

Ergo, unlocking people currently labeled as FN, and the assets locked up under their feet so that they can "capitalize" on their human (and other) capital, is the most moral way forward. The current system is restrictive, infantilizing, and most importantly strips FN people of one of life's greatest gifts: incentive.

We're going to loop back to it, as much as you don't understand it.

You're asking people who control the capital to give it up (to the state, ironically). What are you offering them in return?

[gwill]

@Misterman - you can fill in penismightier on why residential schools were good. It seems he missed your many posts explaining defending that thought.

And your right I'm deflecting a bit. Instead of joining the circle jerk of posts getting worked up over some story from a reserve I pointed you back to the lack of outrage to residential schools, the kidnapping of children and the cultural genocide.

The story that gets people worked up is the one about some chugs near a reserve up to no good not the mistreatment of first nations. Imagine that.

[Buster]

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We're going to loop back to it, as much as you don't understand it.

You're asking people who control the capital to give it up (to the state, ironically). What are you offering them in return?

I'm saying that the best path forward is ensuring everyone in Canada is participating fully in the open market. Not hanging onto antiquated and restrictive systems that simply make people wards of the state and dehumanize then. You're the one that treats people like second class citizens... Using the excuse that people won't want to be able to own and still their assets freely. Shameful.

[kertejud2]

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I'm saying that the best path forward is ensuring everyone in Canada is participating fully in the open market.

Great, no argument here. Never has been.

What are you offering to give up what they have?

[jutes]

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And your right I'm deflecting a bit. Instead of joining the circle jerk of posts getting worked up over some story from a reserve I pointed you back to the lack of outrage to residential schools, the kidnapping of children and the cultural genocide.

Oh my god just fucking move on already, enough with the crying and whining, how much longer will this non sense continue? The Jews were nearly exterminated yet they recovered and in less than 100 years built their own country and are a contribution to the world. What have the natives done since, ever, besides leech off Canadian tax payers year after year. Canada’s biggest mistake was to give into reconciliation and financial compensation, so now we have a permanent welfare section of Canadians that will likely never be able to live on their own. Canada just needs to cut the umbilical cord already.

As someone who immigrated to Canada from Europe and has served Canada for over a decade, I find the FN attitude towards Canada absolutely disgusting. They were born here of a certain race yet have done fuck all for this country. Immigrants like me are more Canadian than those people will ever be.

[Buster]

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Great, no argument here. Never has been.

What are you offering to give up what they have?

You have suggested in the past that the only solution is for the Crown to buy the land (which it technically already owns, but whatever). It's not obvious to me that this is the best path forward.

It would probably be more efficient (and perceived as more fair), to determine a system to directly privatize reserve land into the hands of the band/individuals/reserve residents. The specifics of how this would be structured is another open question, but a solvable problem nonetheless. Reserve lands would then be privately held, to be bought and sold just like any other private land. First Nations status would be abolished as the racist relic that it is, as would any special entitlements. Feel free to suggest timelines and or transition periods and policies if you so wish. Endpoint is a heterogeneous Canadian population with homogeneous rights and privileges.

[Misterman]

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@Misterman - you can fill in penismightier on why residential schools were good. It seems he missed your many posts explaining defending that thought.

I must've missed when I said Residential schools ended up being good as well? So I can't refer him back to it. Although you've been corrected now numerous times on the inaccuracy of what you keep saying, you keep saying it. It is time to stop pretending anybody said this.

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And your right I'm deflecting a bit. Instead of joining the circle jerk of posts getting worked up over some story from a reserve I pointed you back to the lack of outrage to residential schools, the kidnapping of children and the cultural genocide.

How are you completely missing the point of anything anyone is saying? Yes residential schools had some terrible consequences despite their original intentions. But that's not happening any longer. So you using it as a red herring to mislead from the current issues people are discussing(circle jerking if you prefer), is not constructive to the conversation or to your argument. Everything you are arguing boils back to typical left wing fallacy arguments. "X people(insert race, gender, sexual preference, etc here) had a rough go, so they have an excuse to be in their destructive current state. Also lets create an economic situation to lock them in that destructive state forever. But I'm not a racist biggot, you are for trying to give them opportunity."


I will say one thing. It is rather ironic and paradoxical now that you have said you're FN. You are a literal embodiment of exactly the issues we have brought up. You've been led to believe a lot of inaccurate things by people that claim to have your best interests at heart, but want to profit from your suffering.

[gwill]

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Lets take an honest - timeframe based look at residential schools.

Yup, the church bungled it... Government bungled it... But - the intention was 'honorable', noble even...

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And most importantly it was an agreed upon plan with aboriginal leaders.

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I don't know if you're purposely trolling? Or just genuinely ignorant yourself? What is so difficult about understanding the difference between intentions and how that played out in reality? The intentions were obviously noble in some sense to begin with, otherwise the band leaders would not have agreed to it(thanks for the neg rep on that fact btw lol). The bleeding hearts like to jump on this wagon that the entire thing was pure racism from the begging, but they seem to forget that the original colonizers, had they been as racist as people make them out to be, could've easily just ethnically cleansed this country from the get go. You're trying to paint a picture that our ancestors were so racist that death to the Indians was not good enough. We wanted to see them live and suffer, even if it was at great expense to ourselves. That's an extreme level of hate that is hard to fathom.

Here you are discussing how noble the residential schools were. Placing blame on first nations leaders for agreeing to residential schools.

You realize residential schools were forced on first nations kids? The chiefs never had a say in any of this. The govt enacted laws to force kids to go. Then they built the schools as far away from the reserves as they could so parents and kids couldnt visit.

Residential schools served one purpose and it was to remove the Indian and any culture out of the kid and to help them become more civilized. I guess that's a noble and good cause for you and a few others.

I'd link some reading material but it seems your happier making things up as you go.

[Misterman]

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Here you are discussing how noble the residential schools were. Placing blame on first nations leaders for agreeing to residential schools.

You realize residential schools were forced on first nations kids? The chiefs never had a say in any of this. The govt enacted laws to force kids to go. Then they built the schools as far away from the reserves as they could so parents and kids couldnt visit.

Residential schools served one purpose and it was to remove the Indian and any culture out of the kid and to help them become more civilized. I guess that's a noble and good cause for you and a few others.

I'd link some reading material but it seems your happier making things up as you go.

I guess you're hopeless. Oh well, I tried. Good luck with life.

[Buster]

Residential schools should forever be etched in our collective consciousness and history books to remind us of how terrible humans can be to each other.

It is also shameful to those memories that almost a half century (well 40 years at least) after the kidnappings stopped, FN people are using it as an excuse to create conflict in our current society.

I hope that in another 50 years the reserve system, with its racial segregation, will be history and looked upon with a the same amount of disdain. I think that will be the case, and all Canadians will live within the borders with the same rights and privileges.

[kertejud2]

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You have suggested in the past that the only solution is for the Crown to buy the land (which it technically already owns, but whatever). It's not obvious to me that this is the best path forward.

It would probably be more efficient (and perceived as more fair), to determine a system to directly privatize reserve land into the hands of the band/individuals/reserve residents. The specifics of how this would be structured is another open question, but a solvable problem nonetheless. Reserve lands would then be privately held, to be bought and sold just like any other private land. First Nations status would be abolished as the racist relic that it is, as would any special entitlements. Feel free to suggest timelines and or transition periods and policies if you so wish. Endpoint is a heterogeneous Canadian population with homogeneous rights and privileges.

You're focusing on the endpoint you want and glossing over the important parts. Right now you've offered to give the nations nothing, and in return they give up everything else they have.

The Crown "owns" the land (technically they don't, really), but still has to buy it back when they need it. And not in the typical expropriation way, but in very expensive ways (I refer again to the local example of the Ring Road land purchase deal). It's private property unique in the Canadian landscape.

Also thinking locally, what kind of system would be agreed upon where some people get the Grey Eagle Casino land, and others get some random gravel pit in the middle of the reserve? Expand that to the other money-making powerhouses of reserve land (North Shore in Vancouver, the Shushwap holdings in the BC interior) or the political nightmares of places like Awkwesasne, you're not going to get much support. The collective earning and bargaining power of reserve land is worth exponentially more than individual parcels of land in no small part because the land has protection no other private land in the country does. When you consider how many nations are currently involved in legal battles over the actual land they feel treaties (that are Constitutionally protected, mind you) entitle them to, you are going to have a hard time getting much buy-in for what land they'd be getting privatized. That's a big part of what the current issue is about: The land the Wet'suwet'en claim is significantly different from the reserve land they have, and it is buoyed by the fact the land in BC is unceded so it is much more of a grey area of what land you would be privatizing.

I think it's pretty evident you have no concept of the scale of the problem, which is why you're so dismissive about it. It's 634 problems, where you want people to give up something without giving them anything in return.


They don't care about your endpoint. Maybe you should find out what their desired endpoint is.