Lance Armstrong and other athletic "cheaters"

[Masked Bandit]

So with all the recent news about Lance and his years of doping and such it got me thinking. Ever since there has been competition people have been looking for an edge. Some cheat. Some get caught and some don't. I think the overwhelming thought from the general public is that at the highest levels of professional sport, "everyone" is doing it. But when a star gets caught, it's sooooo taboo. Why? If everyone truly is doing it then why not just do away with the restrictions and have doctors administrate it? The way it stands it seems to be that the guy that is best at hiding the doping is the one who will win. And that's not right either.

Discuss.

[403Gemini]

I actually agree with you... I'd love to see what human augmentation (safely administered by doctors) could result in for us.

I'm so on the fence with Lance Armstrong - but more of me is leaning towards "So what if he got caught?" It practically was a witch hunt against him... and didn't he pass drug tests after the race?

[Mibz]

Well if you remove drug restrictions then pretty quickly people are going to die regularly. You'll get athletes who are pushed so hard with so many drugs that their body can't manage to live past what's necessary for one season in the sport. You'd think "Who would do that to themselves?". Well, there's always somebody.

Then we'd start getting into fucking cyborg implants and, eventually, full-blown robots designed specifically to perform in one sport. In sports like running, rowing or something that doesn't require competitive interaction we'll continue to see better and faster robo-athletes. In something like hockey or baseball I think we'd eventually get into an unstoppable force vs immovable object scenario where both sides are so good that nothing gets done.

At least that's my Sci-Fi outlook :P

EDIT: What 403Gemini is talking about still involves restrictions. For something to be safely administered by a doctor then the drugs and doses need to be known. In sport, the advantage comes to the guy with a drug that nobody else has, and in amounts that their body can barely handle. It doesn't matter what sort of regulations you implement, people will cheat. Allowing certain drugs and certain dosages is simply adjusting the bar, not removing it.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by 403Gemini


I'm so on the fence with Lance Armstrong - but more of me is leaning towards "So what if he got caught?" It practically was a witch hunt against him... and didn't he pass drug tests after the race?

He hasn't been caught yet, lol. Everyone is talking about his admission to Oprah, but it hasn't actually been shown yet. I'm going to laugh my fucking ass off if he "admits" he doped in high school or something.

Supposedly they hid the results, but just like everything surrounding him, there's no physical evidence, just former team-mates witnessing against him (to save their own asses against witch hunts)

As for the original question, I think they try not to "legalize" it in sports, because if they did, then people would start getting ridiculous with it, and probably OD, etc. Even if the regulation required doctors to administer it, you know there would be lots of players that would take it on the side on top of that.

[dexlargo]

Creating a level playing field is often cited, but as long as there are benefits to cheating, some people will cheat. I guess the point is keeping it down to manageable levels, so not cheating can remain a viable option.

For me though, I think the main reason I don't want drugs in sport is because of the health effects that many of these drugs have on those taking them.

I am not a chemist/biologist, but I believe that some of the most effective performance enhancing drugs have some serious side effects - steroids' effects are fairly well known, Human Growth Hormone use can dramatically shorten a person's life, etc.

If we allow a system where the use of such dangerous drugs is a pre-requisite to success, doesn't that undermine our willingness to allow our children to pursue dreams of an athletic career? Who wants to see their children doing this stuff?

[KRyn]

Originally posted by 403Gemini
I actually agree with you... I'd love to see what human augmentation (safely administered by doctors) could result in for us.

Look at all of the Olympic Weight lifters. During the 2012 Olympics a number of the Russian Olympic lifters dropped out only days before the Olympics even though they were guaranteed to win their weight classes. Apparently they "injured" them selves. More like they were going to test positive.

The use of steroids and performance enhancing drugs is rampant in all professional sports. Particularly when winning means the difference between a large contract and sponsorship for lots of cash.

As for being taboo, it is because society tells us so. Apparently using steroids is wrong but getting laser eye surgery to see better and further (Tiger Woods) is not. The ability to detect steroids and performance enhancing drugs has come a long way in the past decade. Previously it was very, very easy for people to get away with clean test results. Only in the last year or so have detection methods caught up with the new designer drugs.

Previously it was almost impossible to get caught using HGH. That said, Pat Mendez (the only North American to ever snatch 200kg and a number of his partners training out of Broz Gym) got caught using HGH via new testing methods. Doctors and chemists have been working with top tier athletes for years and years to ensure they have the best chance of winning and not getting caught. Generally the more money you are able to spend the better people you can employ and the less likely you are of getting caught.

Originally posted by Mibz
Well if you remove drug restrictions then pretty quickly people are going to die regularly. You'll get athletes who are pushed so hard with so many drugs that their body can't manage to live past what's necessary for one season in the sport.

I don't want to sound like an a-hole but you don't have a clue what you are taking about. It's impossible to overdose or die as a direct result of administering steroids.

Originally posted by dexlargo


I am not a chemist/biologist, but I believe that some of the most effective performance enhancing drugs have some serious side effects - steroids' effects are fairly well known, Human Growth Hormone use can dramatically shorten a person's life, etc.

Please site some sources, as I would be interested in reading the findings. I am not saying that there are not some repercussions of taking steroids but stating something that bold with no backing is a little extreme.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by KRyn
I don't want to sound like an a-hole but you don't have a clue what you are taking about. It's impossible to overdose or die as a direct result of administering steroids.

You don't, because you're right, haha. I didn't know that, but steroids aren't the only way to gain an advantage, are they? And there's got to be a situation where drugs are allowing you to push your body beyond its limits, to the point of serious injury or death.

[403Gemini]

I think with how far war amps and limb replacement has come , I'd be interested in seeing an alternative type of competition in a "league of it's own" if you will.

I mean, losing a hand now is almost turning into an inconvenience with the limb replacement technology now. Hand replacements with near perfect articulation, and they are going to be coming with USB plug ins so they will act as a mouse & keyboard so effectively how fast you think is how fast the mouse on the screen will move and how well you know the keyboard is how fast the words would appear on the screen since it reacts on reception from the nerves in your arm.

When I saw how awesome replacement limbs are becoming I tried to bribe my wife into cutting off my hand jk... well... only sorta haha

[KRyn]

Originally posted by Mibz
You don't, because you're right, haha. I didn't know that, but steroids aren't the only way to gain an advantage, are they? And there's got to be a situation where drugs are allowing you to push your body beyond its limits, to the point of serious injury or death.

Realistically in professional sports these day, they are. Obviously genetics, coaching/training and sheer determination will propel some people ahead of others. But if you are looking for an edge or want to take your game to the next level... Steroids really are the only way to go. The benefits gained through the use of steroids are profound. A person who uses steroids will build thicker denser muscles, this is something they will carry with them for the rest of their existence. Also the bodies ability to recover is greatly increased. Thus increasing ones ability to train more frequently and even harder.

Comparing a professional athlete that uses steroids and doesn't is like comparing a 100% natural body builder to Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler.
Look at the standing during the Olympics. The difference separating the losers (in dead last) and the winners is in most cases huge. As mentioned genetics and training at professional level can only explain so much of that difference.

[kdwebber]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


He hasn't been caught yet, lol. Everyone is talking about his admission to Oprah, but it hasn't actually been shown yet. I'm going to laugh my fucking ass off if he "admits" he doped in high school or something.

Actually Lance did have a drug test come back positive for cortisone. His team had a doctor back date a prescription for a creme used to treat saddle sores containing cortisone.

"The team’s doctors came up with fake maladies so that riders could receive an exemption to use drugs like cortisone, several riders said. When Armstrong tested positive for cortisone during the 1999 Tour, Armstrong produced a backdated prescription for it, for saddle sores. Hamilton said he knew that was a lie."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/sp...anted=all&_r=0

[Mibz]

That blows my mind. I figured performance enhancing drugs would contain a smorgasbord of shit that all did different things.

[KRyn]

Originally posted by kdwebber


Actually Lance did have a drug test come back positive for cortisone. His team had a doctor back date a prescription for a creme used to treat saddle sores containing cortisone.

"The team’s doctors came up with fake maladies so that riders could receive an exemption to use drugs like cortisone, several riders said. When Armstrong tested positive for cortisone during the 1999 Tour, Armstrong produced a backdated prescription for it, for saddle sores. Hamilton said he knew that was a lie."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/sp...d=all&_r=0

Cortisone is so commonly used in professional sports it shouldn't even be considered cheating!

[sputnik]

I can only imagine what it would be like in a stressed locker room full of 'roid monkeys.

[KRyn]

Originally posted by Mibz
That blows my mind. I figured performance enhancing drugs would contain a smorgasbord of shit that all did different things.

I should be more specific. There are numerous "performance enhancing drugs" that have been banned that do a wide array of different things. But for the most part and simplicity when I say 'steroids' I mean anything that is banned by WADA.

Check this link out if you are interested!

http://www.wada-ama.org/

[KRyn]

Originally posted by sputnik
I can only imagine what it would be like in a stressed locker room full of 'roid monkeys.

Roid rage is one of those make believe symptoms.

[lint]

Originally posted by sputnik
I can only imagine what it would be like in a stressed locker room full of 'roid monkeys.

Originally posted by KRyn
Roid rage is one of those make believe symptoms.

Someone needs to watch Bigger, Faster, Stronger

[C_Dave45]

Big deal. He cheated at playing a game. And got caught. Would there be this much hoopla if Sydney Crosby had tripped a Russian player to steal the puck and score the gold medal winning goal? "HE CHEATED!!!!!!"
It's the exact same morals.

*yawn*. Move on.

(Not pertaining to this thread...just the whole moral indignation by the world at Lance Armstrong. The work he's done, the money he's raised for Cancer..that to me is more important than cheating at a "game")

[kdwebber]

Originally posted by KRyn


Cortisone is so commonly used in professional sports it shouldn't even be considered cheating!

not sure if you are being sarcastic or just don't understand how masking agents work when it comes to PED testing

Originally posted by C_Dave45
Big deal. He cheated at playing a game. And got caught. Would there be this much hoopla if Sydney Crosby had tripped a Russian player to steal the puck and score the gold medal winning goal? "HE CHEATED!!!!!!"
It's the exact same morals.

*yawn*. Move on.

(Not pertaining to this thread...just the whole moral indignation by the world at Lance Armstrong. The work he's done, the money he's raised for Cancer..that to me is more important than cheating at a "game&quot

The problem with this type of thinking is that "cheating" or performance enhancing drugs affect different sports in different ways. In bike its not as big of a problem although openly advocating the use of untested products on the human body can be harmful. Some speculate that PED's can cause cancer among other health issues.

The bigger issue is how PED's can affect players in sports where physical contact can severely injure the opponent. MMA, boxing, football, hockey etc. might not be the best place to allow PED's. If you can hit the other guy a little bit harder or for a longer period of time is that the final straw that could lead to significant brain trauma and other injuries.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by kdwebber

The problem with this type of thinking is that "cheating" or performance enhancing drugs affect different sports in different ways. In bike its not as big of a problem although openly advocating the use of untested products on the human body can be harmful. Some speculate that PED's can cause cancer among other health issues.

The bigger issue is how PED's can affect players in sports where physical contact can severely injure the opponent. MMA, boxing, football, hockey etc. might not be the best place to allow PED's. If you can hit the other guy a little bit harder or for a longer period of time is that the final straw that could lead to significant brain trauma and other injuries.

Yes, I agree with you. I'm not advocating that the current "PED regulations" should be changed, relaxed or abolished.
I'm just talking about people's attitude towards the athletes that get caught. The comments about him, or any other athlete that's tested positive and stripped are akin to the next pedophile or murderer.

But that's just me. "He cheated, he got caught...meh, next story please".

[KRyn]

Originally posted by kdwebber


not sure if you are being sarcastic or just don't understand how masking agents work when it comes to PED testing

Uhh what? Cortisone is commonly administered to athletes as it is an anti-inflammatory. It is also used to treat arthritis in some people.
However, I am unaware that cortisone can be used to mask tests. Got any readings on the topic, always looking to learn more.