5/3/1

[lint]

I know there are a few guys on this. Just wanted to start a discussion on personal experience, what worked, what didn't, what accessory exercises etc.

I did my first cycle at the beginning of summer, was pretty lazy about it and skipped accessory work for the most part. Made gains, but not to the level that I would have liked. Then got busy with kid #2 and didn't have time to pick things up until last month where I started my second cycle. In between I still lifted, but not as regimented. I decided to stick with the scheduled increase even with the lag, but I also made sure that I was doing accessory work this time. Boring but big fit the bill. Cycle 2 felt better week to week. The accessory work did the trick. I started off quite conservatively, dropping the weights down to around 60% and stayed in the 10-12 rep range and 5 sets. I also followed the program lead where I would aim for max reps on my last set. Just started cycle #3 and I'm going to keep with BBB, and throw in HIIT (bear complex, kb swings etc).

I've learned that 5/3/1 is great because it's so flexible, but bad because it's so flexible. In order to see the gains, I need to be more disciplined and HAVE to do the accessory work. Looking forward to milking this for the foreseeable future. Once I hit a BW press, I'll re-evaluate.

Anyone care to share their insights?

[Oz-]

I have been doing this now for about 10 cycles or so. Primarily the Triumvate one. Initially, I was on the 4 day per week cycle, but felt that after fantastic gains my CNS was just not recovering quickly enough to move to the next day. So I went to a 3 x per week schedule with the deload hitting every 5th week now.

The moneymaker lifts were helped quite a bit by my accessory lifts, however I sometimes have to reduce the sets/work (ie: 3-4 x 6-8). Recently, I moved my accessory lifts for Deadlift day from Good Mornings & Abs to Pullthroughs & Abs. This has helped me a bit more with my off the floor strength.

There are some days that I do the boring but big template, if I feel that my form may be off a bit and want to work on the form with a lighter weight. Constant accessory lifts in my program are Dips and Kroc Rows. Both have great crossover for me with every lift for me...especially Kroc Rows for my bench and deadlift.

Having 2 kids myself, I love the fact that I can move the program around to what I need that day and rarely go over my 45 minutes. My strength has increased quite a bit in all lifts, from when I started but I also haven't tested my 1RM in quite some time. Planning on that sometime in December.

Note - Don't know if you have or not Lint, but for everyone else. Buy the book if you plan on doing this program. Do not butcher it by compiling bits of information from various other forums/sources. $20 for easy straight forward book from Jim Wendler, likely a better purchase than that SuperPump 250 shit that some get monthly.

[TurboD]

nm

[liquidboi69]

I don't find that the 5/3/1 program has enough volume, which is why in my opinion, you should never skip out on the accessory work. I would also never skip accessory for programs like WestSide variants as well.

I read what works best for people who are still growing are higher volume programs like Sheiko. While people with enough muscle, that want to just work on their neural efficiency have better results with 5/3/1 or WestSide variants (depends on how advanced you are I guess.)

I'm currently on a modified periodized Sheiko program (where only one lift is worked/day with various accessory exercises), and finish off with complexes.

I have tried 5/3/1 and WestSide's Conjugate Method, and noticed that work capacity and GPP was not improved in these programs vs a program with higher volume. I also noticed I got alot bigger, had more practice/more consistent technique with higher volume programs.

It's weird that WestSide, and low volume high intensity variants like 5/3/1 was interpreted to be what we all know of them today, however Eastern European powerlifters and oly lifters all use a more volume orientated program. I'm wondering if Louie misinterpreted or mistranslated...

Anyway sorry for that huge tangent; are you finding programs like 5/3/1 work better than the typical periodization block programs, or higher volume programs? You are probably more advanced than me, so I'm assuming that you don't really need to put on size...which may be why 5/3/1 is working well with you guys (and not for me )

Or maybe I'm just a newb that needed more technique practice that volume programs provided.

[lint]

Oz- I do indeed have Wendler's manual and find it an excellent read. Well laid out and easy to understand.

liquidboi- I can't speak for everyone, but getting back into things this year, I made very good progress on a linear progression before stalling out twice on squats at the same poundage. Time was a big factor in choosing 5/3/1 over other intermediate programs (texas method, madcow's 5x5). I just don't have time, or desire frankly, to spend 2 hrs in the gym. Past experience training also told me that I tend to respond well to medium volume. I'd say that's why my first cycle wasn't as successful as it could have been. Simply too low a training volume to elicit adaptation. For myself, I think that the accessory work I incorporated into the second cycle not only brought my volume up, but working within that rep range also helped with hypertrophy. I believe that I had reached a point were progress would be very slow unless I added some size as well. Experimentally, that seems to be the case.

In short, I would say that 5/3/1 isn't a low volume high intensity program if done properly. Accessory work should not be looked at as optional. They really need to be done to make the most out of the program.

[Oz-]

I ran a Westside variant for a bit more then 1 year. My body was exhausted and I didn't like the amount of time that I was spending in the gym. Westside allowed me to increase my strength significantly, while gaining muscle and losing fat.

However, my goals changed just around Christmas time last year. My strength is still going up and will likely be close to a 5 1/2 to 6 wheel pull when I retest this Christmas. With the Triumvate template, the accessory work I only leave 60-90 seconds rest time as well.

Out of curiosity I was thinking of running a Sheiko program for 8-12 weeks, just to see how my body responds. The volume is ridiculous compared to what I am used to.

[lint]

Originally posted by TurboD
nm

awww, and I was really looking forward to your pearls of wisdom

[lint]

is Sheiko similar to Smolov?

[Oz-]

Originally posted by lint
is Sheiko similar to Smolov?

I am not familiar with Smolov, but here is a link for some templates that were translated from Russian. This program is likely great for liquidboi69, as he competes in IPF (or raw) and a lot of the Russians that are trained by Sheiko do fantastic in this fed.

http://www.elitefts.com/sheiko/

Another site

http://www.joeskopec.com/programs.html

The underlying principle in Sheiko (someone please correct me if I am wrong) is frequency and volume at relativley low intensities driving progression. Sheiko believes that you can perform a lift many times a week, thus getting better at the actual movement (ie; neural recruitment). However, you have to keep the intensity low in order to be able to recover from so many reps a week.

[liquidboi69]

Ya mine is modified a lot though. I basically don't bother doing the 50-65% sets that they list, and just do a normal 5x5 followed by a 3x3 (or 3x5, followed by 3x3, or 3x5 followed by doubles, changing every few weeks.).

Then a core exercise variant (bench press variant would be close grip) for higher volume. Also I only do one core exercise/workout instead of 2-3 that they list.

Volume is around the default sheiko.

Another thing to note, their programs over there are listed as REPS x SETS. Not SETS x REPS.

So for example, here's a day's worth of squats in Sheiko:
50% 5rep x 1set, 60% 4rep x 1set, 70% 3rep x 2set, 70% 5rep x 5set, 80% 3rep x 5set

I can only ASSUME, that the 50% 60% sets are for warmup, as they only do 1 set. Or do they do it for speed? I may not understand the program properly, but I interpreted it as just warmup sets. So if you want, you can just skip 50-60% sets and do whatever warmup you want. So basically I would just do something like warmup, then 70% 5x5, 80% 5x3 (using the north american set x rep convention.)

That is how my lifting partners modified basically from what I can see at least. Taking the heavy sets of the sheiko day's squats, throwing in another exercise related to the squat, and then doing a bunch of accessories in a circuit.

[kutt3r]

I ran 5/3/1 for the last year as I took a long break from any serious training.
Sq= 225 to 450ish
DL= 300 to 425ish
MP= 85 to 155ish
BP= 125 to 225ish 275 with a loose shirt

I tried two cycles of Boring but big and it floored me, I am not and cannot imagine I will ever be a volume guy. It certainly helped me get back the weights I had been training at previously.

Sheiko and Westside should not be classed with 5/3/1. 5/3/1 is a basic plan that will make you stronger and will not work as well as a specific PLing routine nor was it intended to.

I personally loved 5/3/1's simplicity you have to be stupid to screw it up. I see DeFranco is cooking up something for older guys wanting to get back into it... should be interesting.

[TurboD]

I was going to ask what 5/3/1 was, cause I typed it into google and i got nothing, but It was just my own search fail, cause I wasn't using quotations.

I was just not clear whether it was a drug or a workout plan or what.

Now I know, now that I've figured out the basic tools of the internet and how to manipulate them.

[Oz-]

FYI for everyone

EliteFTS has an e-book sale going on for those interested in the 5/3/1 system.

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elit...d=370&pid=2976

[Darkane]

Thinking of jumping in and doing a 5/3/1 cycle.

Gonna apply a lot of Thibuadeau's protocols on CNS activation and the "perfect rep".

Once I, BODYBUILDER comes out jump on that.

Excited I am

[Darkane]

EliteFTS isn't working right now? I can't seem to purchase the book

[max_boost]

I can send you the book for free if you send me a PM with your e-mail. Now this applies to the regulars only.

I've been slacking so bad with my lifting. Been partying too much, can't seem to stay committed to any type of routine. I've been following it on and off and still on the 1st cycle.

I have told myself to stay focus and plan to stick to it.

[Darkane]

Originally posted by max_boost
I can send you the book for free if you send me a PM with your e-mail. Now this applies to the regulars only.

I've been slacking so bad with my lifting. Been partying too much, can't seem to stay committed to any type of routine. I've been following it on and off and still on the 1st cycle.

I have told myself to stay focus and plan to stick to it.

Ah, thanks man.

No worries I managed to get the checkout to work. Damn good 20 bucks spent for sure.

Gonna re-check all my maxes this week starting tuesday and I'm gonna make a 5/3/1 log with all lifts for my progress.

[lint]

I created an excel template for tracking/calculating training weights if anyone is interested. Calculates estimated 1rm based on 5rm, then training max (I used 85%). My formula also rounds to the nearest 1/2lb since I have fractional plates. Just need to plug in your training max for each lift and it spits out a 4 week cycle of reps and weights.

[Oz-]

Here is one that is also premade...utilizes the MROUND function instead of the CEILING. Which is good if you don't have fractional plates, as CEILING auto rounds up to the nearest 5lbs if you are over by .1.

Click here

[lint]

damn, that spreadsheet is way prettier than mine