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    Quote Originally Posted by BerserkerCatSplat View Post
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    How do you figure the element is unnecessarily large? Do you figure Sigma's optical engineers installed extra glass for funsies?
    The front element only has to be 75mm on a lens like that, but often they are slightly larger than the minimum physical requirement. Nikon's is only 82mm. It is easier to increase the element size than engineer a smaller lens with similar corner sharpness and vignetting characteristics. Just different approaches, doesn't mean one is necessarily wrong. Nikon did the same thing on their 24-70VR, increasing the filter size to 82mm for this same reason, and Sigma has been doing it for as long as I can remember - their lenses are often huge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    The front element only has to be 75mm on a lens like that, but often they are slightly larger than the minimum physical requirement. Nikon's is only 82mm. It is easier to increase the element size than engineer a smaller lens with similar corner sharpness and vignetting characteristics. Just different approaches, doesn't mean one is necessarily wrong. Nikon did the same thing on their 24-70VR, increasing the filter size to 82mm for this same reason, and Sigma has been doing it for as long as I can remember - their lenses are often huge.
    Isn't in the aperture iris diameter that would be 75mm and not the front element? I thought that was what the focal length/aperture was calculating. The same way a 20mm 1.8 lens doesn't need an 11mm front element.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    The front element only has to be 75mm on a lens like that, but often they are slightly larger than the minimum physical requirement.
    It's 75mm minimum entrance pupil for a simple symmetrical lens with no advanced design, that changes a lot with more complicated optical arrangements.

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    I don't find the 85 1.4 that slow, I shoot with it a lot and have rarely had issues with the speed, the 105 on the other hand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by blitz View Post
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    Isn't in the aperture iris diameter that would be 75mm and not the front element? I thought that was what the focal length/aperture was calculating. The same way a 20mm 1.8 lens doesn't need an 11mm front element.
    It is a theoretical number, not a rule as there aren't any lenses I know of that are built precisely to minimum requirements. You won't find a lens that exactly matches but some are very close and only a few mm's apart (when the entrance pupil is close the front lens element diameter). Sometimes the entrance pupil is very close to the size of the front element, sometimes it's not - depends on the optical design. You will not have an entrance pupil larger than the front element, which is why it is used for rough calculations like the one you are referring to. Nikon's front element is only 7mm larger than the theoretical minimum (i.e. if the front element and entrance pupil size were about the same), Sigma's is 30mm - as I said before this is just a different design approach.

    Wider lenses are mostly retrofocus designs because they have to make room for the mirror to flap around so it's not that simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    The front element is much larger than it needs to be as well at 105mm:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    as I said before this is just a different design approach.
    Not really what you said initially, that's why it was confusing. Seems a little premature to state that Sigma's design is an inefficient based on the front element diameter and photos of the outside of the lens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blitz View Post
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    Not really what you said initially, that's why it was confusing. Seems a little premature to state that Sigma's design is an inefficient based on the front element diameter and photos of the outside of the lens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    Just different approaches, doesn't mean one is necessarily wrong.
    Sorry if it was confusing. I didn't say it was inefficient, what I said was that it was a different approach. Nikon's design did it with 82mm, Sigma chose 105mm - one design is a little bit larger than it needs to be at a minimum, and the other is a lot larger. The Sigma design has the front element quite a bit larger than the theoretical minimum, which makes for a very large and heavy lens compared to the Nikon version which is really the only comparison at this point, that's all. Generally it's easier to make a lens sharper edge-to-edge and with less vignetting if you make it bigger - this is the exact same approach Nikon used in their new 24-70VR but to a lesser degree. I'm sure Sigma studied the Nikon 105/1.4 so it's possible they needed to make it physically larger to match or beat it's performance in certain areas.

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    Sigma has made bigger front elements than Nikon before, example the 85 1.4. Why I have no idea but I have to assume it is because they feel it is part of an optically superior design. The 50 art vs Nikon 1.4 also has a much bigger front element and is in my opinion significantly better performing.

    Sharper isn’t always better (Nikon 58 anyone) but Sigma clearly has their reasons for bigger front elements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by msommers View Post
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    Sigma has made bigger front elements than Nikon before, example the 85 1.4. Why I have no idea but I have to assume it is because they feel it is part of an optically superior design. The 50 art vs Nikon 1.4 also has a much bigger front element and is in my opinion significantly better performing.

    Sharper isn’t always better (Nikon 58 anyone) but Sigma clearly has their reasons for bigger front elements.
    Generally it's done for edge performance and vignetting performance. Sigma had the 82mm filter size on their 24-70 before Nikon did, and then Nikon did the exact same thing which improved exactly those two areas compared to the original 24-70G. Same basic reason why if you put a FF lens on a DX camera, there is virtually no vignetting and corner sharpness is great because the lens sweet spot covers more of the sensor.

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    Which then would suggest that Sigma feels a 105mm front element IS needed, for performance reasons...
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    Quote Originally Posted by msommers View Post
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    Which then would suggest that Sigma feels a 105mm front element IS needed, for performance reasons...
    Perhaps, yes, that is what I said earlier, I'm sure Sigma studied the Nikon 105/1.4 so it's possible they needed to make it physically larger to match or beat it's performance in certain areas. It also could have just been needed for the particular design they chose, but we don't know that yet.

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    No....

    Hmmmm.....

    Just so I'm understanding this correctly...

    "[the Sigma] element is much larger than it needs to be"

    While on the other hand....

    "[the large element is] easier to make a lens sharper edge-to-edge and with less vignetting"

    So it's bigger than it needs to be, despite it performing better as a result of being bigger...
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    Sigma improved their motors since the 85mm 1.4 ART so it moves a lot faster than the 50mm even with the heavy glass.

    Anyways. I am seriously thinking of getting the A7III and selling my m5 and 6d. I'll still keep my 5dm3 for now and all my canon lenses.

    Anyone use the sigma mc-11 EF -> E mount adaptor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by msommers View Post
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    No....

    Hmmmm.....

    Just so I'm understanding this correctly...

    "[the Sigma] element is much larger than it needs to be"

    While on the other hand....

    "[the large element is] easier to make a lens sharper edge-to-edge and with less vignetting"

    So it's bigger than it needs to be, despite it performing better as a result of being bigger...
    Sorry, I don't know why where is so much confusion around this.

    There is a theoretical minimum front element size. Some lenses are very close to this size, some aren't. The Sigma is much larger than this theoretical minimum compared to the Nikon (the only comparison really). Whether or not this was done for performance reasons or because the design wasn't able to be as compact as the Nikon's for a similar results, as I said before we don't know yet until both are tested. If it doesn't outperform the Nikon, then the size was probably due to engineering limitations. If it does outperform the Nikon, then the size is likely a trade off for slightly better performance - this is yet to be seen. Not all lenses that are bigger perform better (like Sigma's 24-70), but its one factor that can improve corner and vignetting performance and my guess is that is why they made the 105/1.4 as big as it is - we will see.

    When I said it was larger than it needed to be I didn't mean that was some sort of problem, but I now see how it may have been interpreted that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakalimasu View Post
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    Sigma improved their motors since the 85mm 1.4 ART so it moves a lot faster than the 50mm even with the heavy glass.
    DPR staff played with the lens and said the focus speed is similar to the 85/1.4A. That's the only comment I've read on it so far though.

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    Not gear related, but Chris and Jordan from TCSTV are moving to DPReview

    https://www.dpreview.com/site-news/4...ng-to-dpreview



    Fuck, I'm gonna miss not seeing those guys at TCS. They were fun to talk to.

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    DPR used to be decent, but over the last several years it has gone so far downhill. Other than their camera/sensor comparison tools which are excellent, they really don't offer much to the community anymore. Reviews on popular cameras are sometimes months or years late, or non-existent, and they have an overall useless and wildly ambiguous rating system. Virtually every valuable member has left their forums due to the rampant toxicity and completely un-moderated trolling. Their forum format is also the worst I have experienced on the entire web within the last decade. I miss the good ol days when Phil was running the place. Their news feed is littered with old/late news and unfounded rumors now, and most of their articles are in a super annoying clickbait format with 10+ mini pages. At least the price is right. I wonder how much of that is due to the Amazon sale. Regardless, I hope these two are getting paid well and end up happy with their decision - I wonder if they had to move?
    Last edited by Mitsu3000gt; 04-28-2018 at 11:59 PM.

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    I was wondering what was the major announcement yesterday, then this morning I saw the DPReview youtube screencap with Chris on it, I thought it was just a collaboration.

    Going to miss seeing them two at the store, looks like they will be staying in Calgary for now based on the video though.

    Curious to see how the 2 new TCS Host will be

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    DPR used to be decent, but over the last several years it has gone so far downhill. Other than their camera/sensor comparison tools which are excellent, they really don't offer much to the community anymore. Reviews on popular cameras are sometimes months or years late, or non-existent, and they have an overall useless and wildly ambiguous rating system. Virtually every valuable member has left their forums due to the rampant toxicity and completely un-moderated trolling. Their forum format is also the worst I have experienced on the entire web within the last decade. I miss the good ol days when Phil was running the place. Their news feed is littered with old/late news and unfounded rumors now, and most of their articles are in a super annoying clickbait format with 10+ mini pages. At least the price is right. I wonder how much of that is due to the Amazon sale. Regardless, I hope these two are getting paid well and end up happy with their decision - I wonder if they had to move?
    Naw they said they didn't have to move. Jordan's wife is taking over TCSTV

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    Interesting move and I hope they can grow that channel.

    And given the whole youtube game is different now vs even 2 years ago, is there still money in this game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
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    Interesting move and I hope they can grow that channel.

    And given the whole youtube game is different now vs even 2 years ago, is there still money in this game?
    YouTube camera reviews have always been kind of useless, and TCS was no exception. The ones they did were purely for entertainment as far as I could tell, but they had good personalities for that. You get a basic feature run down no different than a quick visit to the website or from reading the press release and completely useless sample images implanted into the video, that's about it. No controlled testing, detailed comparisons, or anything that would really help with the decision making process. To make good money on YT I would assume you need to be in the top 1%, but I don't know that game too well.

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