HELP: Rx8 engine problem

[bourge73]

Sorry to hear dude. My one and only Mazda
Was a 13b and never ever will own another Mazda after that car
Those rotaries are for people that know cars and live to work on them
Hope it all works out for you. Just my opinion though
As there are lots of rotary fan boys on here.

[HO2S]

Originally posted by DeleriousZ


Is there any way to get an agreement so there's warranty on the labor, but not the installed parts? Or something like that. I know shops hate dealing with customer supplied parts, because they can be unknown and the shop can't provide warranty on the parts (even though most clueless customers expect them to). However, dealerships charge extortionist prices on parts, and it's really hard to swallow paying $400 for something you can pick up for $40 that's made by the exact same manufacturer.


Rock auto is amazing, if you don't mind forking out for the shipping. My roommate recently ordered stuff from RA and forked out for the expensive shipping. Stuff was here within a day and a half, delivered by UPS with no duty/brokerage fees.

The price for the correct laser platinum NGK plugs from Napa is $280 and the coils are $130 to $150 each. The wire set is $116. Its .5h to 1.0h of labor depends on how the shop calculates it. The shop or the dealer is going to put in parts that they know and trust to uphold their reputation. No one knows where rock auto gets their parts from or how good they are. If they met high quality standards don't you think Mazda or other repair shops would buy from them? There is a reason why they don't.

If a customer supplied part fails, the customer will show up at the shop and right away say that their repair has failed and the shop is to blame. Now you have a tech that has a come back and is pissed off, depends on the repair facility he could be diagnosing the failure for free. If it turns out the supplied part failed, the customer gets pissed off because he cheaped out and got burned. Now he has to pay a diagnostic fee and a new part. But most of the time the customer dose not see it like that. They just see the shop extorting money out of them. It's a loose loose for the shop, that's why most don't play ball with customer supplied parts.
Its better to have a customer walk away with no work done and thinking that, that shop is too expensive than a train wreak job with lost revenue and a pissed off customer.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by HO2S


If you do a compression test and or leak down test the results will be skewed because you have cylinders full of fuel that will give you false readings. You need a engine that has a properly working fuel and ignition system before you can determine if you have a mechanical problem.

.

Cylinders? Anything you suggest or say in this thread should be COMPLETELY disregarded! Leak down test? For the valves?

OP start with a compression test, using the Mazda compression tester. Once we have those numbers we can start to eliminate other things. And for the love of God don't listen to anything HO2S says

[HO2S]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Cylinders? Anything you suggest or say in this thread should be COMPLETELY disregarded! Leak down test? For the valves?

OP start with a compression test, using the Mazda compression tester. Once we have those numbers we can start to eliminate other things. And for the love of God don't listen to anything HO2S says

A TSB right from Mazda:

Bulletin No: 01-015/08

Last Issued: 12/26/2008

Subject:
ENGINE CRANKS NO START

BULLETIN NOTE
^ This bulletin supersedes the previous bulletin 01-048/06, issued 11/17/06 and 01-015/08, issued 3/17/08, 3/19/2008, 4/18/2008, 7/17/2008 and 10/24/2008. The REPAIR PROCEDURE has been revised.

^ This TSB applies only to verified customer complaints. If Emission Recall 4206F has NOT been completed, perform this Service Bulletin first, then complete Emission Recall 4206F.

^ Warranty term coverage is 8 years (96 months) from the original warranty start date, with a 100,000 mile mileage limitation. Refer to WARRANTY INFORMATION for complete details.

APPLICABLE MODEL(S) / VINS
2004-2008 RX-8

DESCRIPTION

Some vehicles may experience difficulty starting (cranks no start).

A cranks, no start condition may occur after driving the vehicle a short distance without engine reaching normal operating temperature. Examples: starting a vehicle and moving it to wash it, engine stall due to mis-application of clutch then restart. This commonly occurs at port facilities or dealer lots where vehicles are frequently started cold, moved for short distances and then turned off.

A cranks, no start condition may be caused either by fuel flooded spark plugs or lower than normal compression due to apex seals locked into rotor groove from carbon accumulation.






So cylinders or firing chambers or gasoline burning areas or what ever terminology you want to use. If its flooded with fuel it can cause a no start hence why a tune up is needed first.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by HO2S
So cylinders or firing chambers or gasoline burning areas or what ever terminology you want to use. If its flooded with fuel it can cause a no start hence why a tune up is needed first.

Your knowledge knows no bounds! Cylinders, firing chambers hahaha.

I don't know you but I suspect you're a mechanic by trade? Now ladies and gentlemen your are learning first hand why rotaries have gotten a bad wrap. Even trained mechanics have no idea how they work or the principles behind them.

HO2S you suggested the cylinders were flooded, and that it required a leak down test. Then when called out you now call them "firing chambers". Ever built a rotary? I'm thinking not. You may be an awesome mechanic but my advice would be to leave this thread alone.

OP, start with a Mazda compression check, that is the cheapest and easiest way to get ourselves to step 2. Disregard the info posted by HO2S, we'll cross that AFTER the comp test results.

[Alak]

OP Needs to do a compression test, with a mazda compression tester, before he spends a dime on anything.

I would:

1) Do a visual inspection of the engine bay.

2) Do a compression test.

2A) If Compression test is okay, Do another visual of the engine bay if you didn't find anything the first time before throwing parts at it.

2B) If no compression, problem found, and no money spent to this point (except the compression test itself).

Throwing parts at it blindly is the same as posting on an internet forum and everyone guesses what the problem could be based on the basic description provided.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Alak
OP Needs to do a compression test, with a mazda compression tester, before he spends a dime on anything.

I would:

1) Do a visual inspection of the engine bay.

2) Do a compression test.

2A) If Compression test is okay, Do another visual of the engine bay if you didn't find anything the first time before throwing parts at it.

2B) If no compression, problem found, and no money spent to this point (except the compression test itself).

Throwing parts at it blindly is the same as posting on an internet forum and everyone guesses what the problem could be based on the basic description provided.

Alak and I have battled in the past, but both of us have actual knowledge of the rotary motor, certainly enough to know they don't have cylinders or valves lol. His list is exactly what I would do if it was my car.

[Alak]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Alak and I have battled in the past, but both of us have actual knowledge of the rotary motor, certainly enough to know they don't have cylinders or valves lol. His list is exactly what I would do if it was my car.

I have learned much over the last decade of being into Rotary Performance. Trial and Error, as well as a lot learned from gentlemen like rx7_turbo2.

I don't by any means know everything about rotaries, but I know enough to not overlook the simplest things such as a visual inspection and a compression test.

LoL. Valves.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Alak


I have learned much over the last decade of being into Rotary Performance. Trial and Error, as well as a lot learned from gentlemen like rx7_turbo2.

I don't by any means know everything about rotaries, but I know enough to not overlook the simplest things such as a visual inspection and a compression test.

LoL. Valves.

I can't take a whole lot of credit. Most of what I know was learned through trial and error as well, that and making friends with an enigma of a man that lives south of town lol.

[962 kid]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


I can't take a whole lot of credit. Most of what I know was learned through trial and error as well, that and making friends with an enigma of a man that lives south of town lol.

[Alak]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


I can't take a whole lot of credit. Most of what I know was learned through trial and error as well, that and making friends with an enigma of a man that lives south of town lol.

Haha, the Enigma.

I was supposed to dyno my car there last year, but I only built the engine last week. My how time flies.

[MrSector9]

6ports have valves :P

this thread makes me want another rotary The fun part is not when they are running.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by MrSector9
6ports have valves :P

this thread makes me want another rotary The fun part is not when they are running.

Hahaha I suppose the 6 ports kinda count

Ah the old 13b n/a six ports. Wire those bad boys open!!!!

[HO2S]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Your knowledge knows no bounds! Cylinders, firing chambers hahaha.

I don't know you but I suspect you're a mechanic by trade? Now ladies and gentlemen your are learning first hand why rotaries have gotten a bad wrap. Even trained mechanics have no idea how they work or the principles behind them.

HO2S you suggested the cylinders were flooded, and that it required a leak down test. Then when called out you now call them "firing chambers". Ever built a rotary? I'm thinking not. You may be an awesome mechanic but my advice would be to leave this thread alone.

OP, start with a Mazda compression check, that is the cheapest and easiest way to get ourselves to step 2. Disregard the info posted by HO2S, we'll cross that AFTER the comp test results.

Yes I am a mechanic by trade and I specialize in run ability and engine diagnostics.

I stand by my statements, minus the leak down I wrote that from force or habit. Even I can see were the mazda tech is coming from and agree that all the systems need to be functioning properly before a engine is called. This is just my opinion the op can take it or leave it.

[RickDaTuner]

For the rotary guys...


Whats the labour and cost of apex seal replacement and engine block machining?

I'm also curious of the assembly process, is there shims for the apex seals or just different sizes?
Is it ever advisable to just replace the seals?

Sorry to derail the thread a bit.


The suggestion of the dealer to do a service prior to mechanicle diagnosis is asinine, sounds like a blatant cold hearted upsell.
Reminds me of my sour experience I'm currently dealing with regarding incompetent Chochrane Toyota Technicians.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by HO2S

This is just my opinion the op can take it or leave it.

Agreed. He should leave it.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner
For the rotary guys...


Whats the labour and cost of apex seal replacement and engine block machining?

I'm also curious of the assembly process, is there shims for the apex seals or just different sizes?
Is it ever advisable to just replace the seals?

Sorry to derail the thread a bit.


The suggestion of the dealer to do a service prior to mechanicle diagnosis is asinine, sounds like a blatant cold hearted upsell.
Reminds me of my sour experience I'm currently dealying with regarding incompetent Chochrane Toyota Technicians.

Ok lets start.

There is no "block". Think of a rotary engine as more of a cake with layers. The components of which are not salvageable if damaged. They can not be machined and reused.

Rotor housings. Some people will try and sell "re coated" housings, time has shown these do not hold up. If the stock housings are not useable because of damage or degradation then housings new from Mazda are really your only option.

Iron housings or plates. Some will have used ones lapped, some will reuse them. We've seen issues with lapped housings, and if they show significant wear the best bet is buy new from Mazda.

The rotors themselves are the same. They can not be reconditioned. Some people will take rotors with damaged apex seal grooves and machine the grooves to accept 3mm seals (stock are 2mm) and this has been discussed a thousand times but that's a trip down the rabbit hole and not advisable in my opinion. Rotors damaged? New Mazda rotors are the only viable option.

Apex seals themselves also can not be reused if damaged. If not damaged there are a few techniques depending on what seals they are that can allow you to reuse them but unless the engine had REALLY low kms on it when it was taken apart it's not advisable. Again some will argue but the stock Mazda seals are the best bet.

Apex seals have no shims. They have springs behind them. The fitment of these seals and the other seals is the key to a good build, and honestly? Its an incredibly specialized thing.

In addition to the apex seals remember there are side seals, corner seals, and oil control rings, all with associated springs. As far as gaskets and o rings, we've found the stock Mazda stuff holds up the best.

The fact of the matter is at this point if you require an engine rebuild you really only have 2 options in my opinion. 1) Rebuild it yourself using all new Mazda parts. 2) Buy a Re-manufactured engine from Mazda and drop it in.

The rotary engine is a pretty simple design, amazingly simple in operation as well. However building one is highly specialized and intricate. There are hundreds of little tricks that VERY few know that make the difference between a good build and a ho hum build.

Price? I haven't priced a proper build out in years. Rest assured it's big bucks to do it right.

Owning a rotary powered vehicle is a labor of love thing, the dollars and sense will never go round.

[rx7_turbo2]

This video is basic but gives you the idea.

[Cody D]

Your quotes from the Mazda dealership make me remember why I avoid dealerships at all cost, $1200 for a tune up on your car without even attempting to diagnose the problem first. The habit of replacing parts instead of troubleshooting is just laziness and any mechanic who recommends this should be avoided.

Originally posted by HO2S
I stand by my statements, minus the leak down I wrote that from force or habit.

You stand by your statement that the cylinders in his rotary engine are flooded?

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
This video is basic but gives you the idea

Thanks man I appreciate the write up and vid.

I used be to interested in rotory engines back in my late teens, I can recall reading much of what you've outlined, but it's been so long that I couldn't bring up from memory on demand.