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Thread: attack on Syria would be a WAR CRIME: chomsky

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    Originally posted by Nitro5
    so it seems the UN report is even leaning in the direction that the Assad regime is responsible:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...anada#comments
    That was never their mandate, though it should have been. They were mandated to collect evidence of use, not fault. It's a very obvious set-up.

    We know chemicals were used.
    We know civilains died.
    We don't know if Assad used them.
    His military without his permission.
    Terrorists trying to make it look like Assad used them to get foregin support.

    There are ways to protect civilians without taking sides in a war, without prolonging the war, without escalating the war.

    Peace KEEPERS
    Buffer Zones
    Syria surrendering chemicals to the Russians
    War crimes Tribunal
    ratification of a world court....

    Escalation and "regime change". is NOT the solution.

  2. #122
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    Originally posted by Toma

    That was never their mandate, though it should have been. They were mandated to collect evidence of use, not fault. It's a very obvious set-up.

    We know chemicals were used.
    We know civilains died.
    We don't know if Assad used them.
    His military without his permission.
    Terrorists trying to make it look like Assad used them to get foregin support.

    There are ways to protect civilians without taking sides in a war, without prolonging the war, without escalating the war.

    Peace KEEPERS
    Buffer Zones
    Syria surrendering chemicals to the Russians
    War crimes Tribunal
    ratification of a world court....

    Escalation and "regime change". is NOT the solution.
    You are a terrible advocate for your position, even if I agree with the idea that intervention and regime change is a bad idea.

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    Originally posted by Toma


    Peace KEEPERS
    Buffer Zones
    Syria surrendering chemicals to the Russians
    War crimes Tribunal
    ratification of a world court....
    Okay, I'll bite:

    Peace KEEPERS - boots on the ground? Retarded.
    Buffer Zones - who the fuck is going to obey?
    Syria surrendering chemicals to the Russians - not enough, they've already been used.
    War crimes Tribunal - sure, and if they find him guilty year from now, a military strike then?
    ratification of a world court.... - you're dreaming.
    Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


    Stop with the antics. Beyonder.

  4. #124
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    surprised this hasn't been posted yet

    Forensic Details in U.N. Report Point to Assad’s Use of Gas
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/17/wo...pagewanted=all

    A United Nations report released on Monday confirmed that a deadly chemical arms attack caused a mass killing in Syria last month and for the first time provided extensive forensic details of the weapons used, which strongly implicated the Syrian government.

    While the report’s authors did not assign blame for the attack on the outskirts of Damascus, the details it documented included the large size and particular shape of the munitions and the precise direction from which two of them had been fired. Taken together, that information appeared to undercut arguments by President Bashar al-Assad of Syria that rebel forces, who are not known to possess such weapons or the training or ability to use them, had been responsible.

    The report, commissioned by Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, was the first independent on-the-ground scientific inquest into the attack, which left hundreds of civilians gassed to death, including children, early on Aug. 21.

    The repercussions have elevated the 30-month-old Syrian conflict into a global political crisis that is testing the limits of impunity over the use of chemical weapons. It could also lead to the first concerted action on the war at the United Nations Security Council, which up to now has been paralyzed over Syria policy.

    “The report makes for chilling reading,” Mr. Ban told a news conference after he briefed the Security Council. “The findings are beyond doubt and beyond the pale. This is a war crime.”

    Mr. Ban declined to ascribe blame, saying that responsibility was up to others, but he expressed hope that the attack would become a catalyst for a new diplomatic determination at the United Nations to resolve the Syrian conflict, which has left more than 100,000 people dead and millions displaced.

    There was no immediate reaction to the report from the Syrian government. But just two days before the report was released, Syria officially agreed to join the international convention on banning chemical weapons, and the United States and Russia, which have repeatedly clashed over Syria, agreed on a plan to identify and purge those weapons from the country by the middle of next year. Syria has said it would abide by that plan.

    The main point of the report was to establish whether chemical weapons had been used in the Aug. 21 attack in the Damascus suburb of Ghouta, an area long infiltrated by rebels. The United Nations inspectors concluded that “chemical weapons have been used in the ongoing conflict between the parties in the Syrian Arab Republic, also against civilians, including children, on a relatively large scale.”

    The weapons inspectors, who visited Ghouta and left the country with large amounts of evidence on Aug. 31, said, “In particular, the environmental, chemical and medical samples we have collected provide clear and convincing evidence that surface-to-surface rockets containing the nerve agent sarin were used.”

    But the report’s annexes, detailing what the authors found, were what caught the attention of nonproliferation experts.

    In one particularly incriminating piece of information, the inspectors said the remnants of a warhead found in the attack’s aftermath showed its capacity of sarin to be about 56 liters — far larger than the suspected delivery systems used in alleged chemical weapons attacks before the Aug. 21 strike.

    The investigators were unable to examine all of the munitions used, but were able to find and measure several rockets or their components. Using standard field techniques for ordnance identification and crater analysis, they established that at least two types of rockets had been used, including an M14 artillery rocket bearing Cyrillic markings and a 330-millimeter rocket of unidentified provenance.

    These findings, though not presented as evidence of responsibility, were likely to strengthen the argument of those who claim the Syrian government bears the blame, because the weapons in question had not been previously documented or reported to be in possession of the insurgency.

    Moreover, those weapons are fired by large, conspicuous launchers. For rebels to have carried out the attack, they would have had to organize an operation with weapons they are not known to have and of considerable scale, sophistication and secrecy — moving the launchers undetected into position in areas under strong government influence or control, keeping them in place unmolested for a sustained attack that would have generated extensive light and noise, and then successfully withdrawing them — all without being detected in any way.

    One annex to the report also identified azimuths, or angular measurements, from where rockets had struck, back to their points of origin. When plotted and marked independently on maps by analysts from Human Rights Watch and by The New York Times, the United Nations data from two widely scattered impact sites pointed directly to a Syrian military complex.

    Other nonproliferation experts said the United Nations report was damning in its implicit incrimination of Mr. Assad’s side in the conflict, not only in the weaponry fragments but the azimuth data that indicated the attack’s origins. An analysis of the report posted online by the Arms Control Association, a Washington-based advocacy group, said “the additional details and the perceived objectivity of the inspectors buttress the assignment of blame to Bashar al-Assad’s Syrian government.”

    The United States and its allies seized on the volume of data in the report to reaffirm their conclusion that only Syrian government forces had the ability to carry out such a strike, calling it a validation of their own long-held assertions.

    Both the British and American ambassadors to the United Nations also told reporters that the report’s lead author, Dr. Ake Sellstrom, a Swedish scientist who joined Mr. Ban in the Security Council briefing, had told members that quality of the sarin used in the attack was high.

    “This was no cottage-industry use of chemical weapons,” said the British ambassador, Sir Mark Lyall-Grant. “The type of munitions, the trajectories, which confirmed the analysis that British experts have done about the provenance of where the rockets were fired from, all of that confirms, in our view, that there is no remaining doubt that it was the regime that used chemical weapons.”

    Samantha Power, the American ambassador to the United Nations, acknowledged implicitly the credibility issue that has confronted the United States on Syria chemical weapons use, a legacy of the flawed intelligence on weapons of mass destruction that led the United States into the Iraq war a decade ago.

    “We understand some countries did not accept on faith that the samples of blood and hair that the United States received from people affected by the Aug. 21 attack contained sarin,” she said. “But now Dr. Sellstrom’s samples show the same thing. And it’s very important to note that the regime possesses sarin, and we have no evidence that the opposition posses sarin.”

    Russia’s ambassador, Vitaly I. Churkin, said there were still too many unanswered questions. In talking to reporters, he asked, if the Syrian forces had indeed been responsible and sought to attack insurgents, “how is it possible to fire projectiles at your opponent and miss them all?”

    “We need not jump to any conclusions,” he said.

    The report’s release punctuated a tumultuous week spawned by the global outrage over the attack, in which an American threat of punitive force on the Syrian government was delayed as Russia proposed a diplomatic alternative and intense negotiations between the United States and Russia led to a sweeping agreement under which Syria’s chemical weapons arsenal could be destroyed.

    The United Nations, in danger of becoming irrelevant in helping to end the Syria conflict, was suddenly thrust back into a central role, with the Security Council now engaged in deliberations over an enforceable measure to hold Syria to its commitment on chemical weapons.

    Secretary of State John Kerry and the foreign ministers of France and Britain said Monday that they would not tolerate delays in dismantling Syria’s chemical weapons.

    “It is extremely important that there are no evasions,” William Hague, the British foreign secretary, said at a news conference with Mr. Kerry in Paris.

    Mr. Kerry said, “If Assad fails in time to abide by the terms of this framework, make no mistake, we are all agreed — and that includes Russia — that there will be consequences.”

    The release of the report came as a separate panel of investigators from the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva said they were investigating 14 episodes of suspected chemical weapons use.


    Reporting was contributed by Michael R. Gordon from Paris, Nick Cumming-Bruce from Geneva, Anne Barnard from Beirut, Lebanon, and David E. Sanger from New York.

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    U.N. Data on Gas Attack Points to Assad’s Top Forces

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/wo...s.html?hp&_r=0

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    "Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."

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    Not to deny Assad's side used them, but NY Times is pretty much garbage as a source, especially if you see David Sanger's name near it. They have some good journalists, but they have some that are full blown propaganda puppets, who enjoy access to stories from the highest levels. He was the one that the Obama admin was leaking classified info to, and wrote movie-plot like exclusive features glorifying their operations (Stuxnet, Osama raid) then wrote a book about it. He's very happy to report what they give him.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...hor-leads-to-/

    That's the problem though, pretty much everybody is full of shit.

    It's pretty clear that nobody on this forum has a deep enough understanding of the logistics of using those weapons and the capabilities of either side, so saying with certainty who it was doesn't make much sense. We are just talking out of our asses here.

    I kinda feel like it was Assad's side now, but done without his permission. Not very confident in that though, and still feel like it could be anyone.

    But even if it was him directly, I still don't think that warrants intervention, so it's kind of moot. Yeah, chemical weapons are shitty, but it's not like a strike will improve anything, and we aren't the world police. And are those *that* much worse than other war atrocities anyway? Napalm is not banned. Somehow covering people in flaming acid doesn't cross a line but gassing them does

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    Oh c'mon, really? NYT is the most reputable newspaper in the world.

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    It is estimated that at least 100 Canadians — mainly in their 20s and coming from Ontario and Alberta — have left for Syria in the past year, joining a steady march of foreigners drawn to the conflict, security sources say. http://www.thestar.com/news/world/20...in_rebels.html



    Isnt Alberta a booming economy? If the money is good I can see how the downside of living there is always the cold weather... but I wonder why Albertians would still risk their lives to bring "freedom" to Syrians when its population had a better standard of living then the first nations of Canada.
    Are theses Canadian rebels just as dumb as a bag of rocks or are there big mercenary rewards given to bring terrorism in Syria?
    Last edited by Arash Boodagh; 09-18-2013 at 05:35 AM.

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    Originally posted by Arash Boodagh
    It is estimated that at least 100 Canadians — mainly in their 20s and coming from Ontario and Alberta — have left for Syria in the past year, joining a steady march of foreigners drawn to the conflict, security sources say. http://www.thestar.com/news/world/20...in_rebels.html



    Isnt Alberta a booming economy? If the money is good I can see how the downside of living there is always the cold weather... but I wonder why Albertians would still risk their lives to bring "freedom" to Syrians when its population had a better standard of living then the first nations of Canada.
    Are theses Canadian rebels just as dumb as a bag of rocks or are there big mercenary rewards given to bring terrorism in Syria?
    Why would you assume that their goals are financially driven?
    Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


    Stop with the antics. Beyonder.

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    I made two assumptions, dumb as a bag of rocks or in it for the money.

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    Originally posted by FixedGear
    Oh c'mon, really? NYT is the most reputable newspaper in the world.
    Yeah you're right, I made all that up and seeded the internet with fake links. And they haven't been caught fabricating stories or anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayson_Blair

    Four star generals don't share classified info with journalists if they don't want a story written.

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    You said "NY Times is pretty much garbage as a source" and then quote a wikipedia page about a guy who was cut from the staff because his reporting wasn't credible? LOL. This does not support your claim; if anything, it demonstrates the quality and credibility of NYT journalism!

    The NY Times is among the most (if not the most) prestigious, reputable, and credible newspapers in the world. Go to any institution of academia, government, business, whatever, anywhere in the world, and people will know this.

    People like Vladimir Putin do not publish their op-eds in the NYT because it's a "garbage source."

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    Originally posted by FixedGear
    You said "NY Times is pretty much garbage as a source" and then quote a wikipedia page about a guy who was cut from the staff because his reporting wasn't credible? LOL. This does not support your claim; if anything, it demonstrates the quality and credibility of NYT journalism!

    The NY Times is among the most (if not the most) prestigious, reputable, and credible newspapers in the world. Go to any institution of academia, government, business, whatever, anywhere in the world, and people will know this.

    People like Vladimir Putin do not publish their op-eds in the NYT because it's a "garbage source."
    Just to make sure this isn't lost in the NYT credibility mini-debate:

    The NYT is reporting the findings of a UN report. They're not doing an op-ed piece or anything; the findings and conclusions are direct from UN investigators.

    So bottom line: chemical weapons were used, and it was almost assuredly the regime that used them.

    Now the question is - what to do about it? Syria is using the CWC signing as a bargaining chip, saying that they will sign it if the US promises not to attack or intervene. That, too me, is bullshit - an easy way out after they've already committed the crime. Ideally we would see all of the UN rise up and take appropriate action against Syria, not just the US. I think people would bitch a lot less if it was the entire security council stepping up instead of just one country.
    Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


    Stop with the antics. Beyonder.

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    Originally posted by Arash Boodagh
    I made two assumptions, dumb as a bag of rocks or in it for the money.
    Maybe a voice in their head told them

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    Foreign terrorists funded and armed by the US and others.

    If they gave a shit about civilians, they would want the conflict to end quickly.

    They dont give 2 shits about civilians. They want misery, dissent, instability.

    AMERICA IS ALWAYS on the wrong side of conflicts.

    For you that are no completely brain dead.... read Professor Chomsky's newset book. "On Western Terrorism, Hiroshima to Drone warfar".

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    ...
    Last edited by Sugarphreak; 07-21-2019 at 02:09 PM.

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    Originally posted by Toma

    AMERICA IS ALWAYS on the wrong side of conflicts.
    Go Nazis!

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    Originally posted by Nitro5


    Go Nazis!

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    Originally posted by Toma


    AMERICA IS ALWAYS on the wrong side of conflicts.
    Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


    Stop with the antics. Beyonder.

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