Quebec Charter of Values

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Well, she is kinda hot. Modestly dressed Middle East female is like a Kinder Surprise.

There is this cute middle east chick who works in my building. Dresses traditional. Saw her jogging one day.

Holy crap. Sneaky bigs.

[heavyfuel]

Originally posted by VWEvo



Your kind??? I'm curious to hear how "your kind"
is different than my kind?

The idea of ethnic groups making a big fuss all the time, is a complete exaggeration. I agree that from time to time issues come up, but most would agree they live in the greatest country in the world.

Unfortunately, its people like you that have a tainted view and pretend an issue exists when none does. But since this is "your" country, I'll make sure all of my friends and family begin to conform.

You have yet to list what your values and freedoms are. Care to educate us?

LOL heeeere we go with the turning it around bullshit... You talk all this crap but you know damn well if ur sister or cousin would be dating/seeing/BANGING a white dude, you'd be out full force 30 strong to enforce your medieval beliefs.
Most of you guys have that "can do no wrong" attitude some (SOME not ALL) of you treat white women like shit (I've seen it) and play the race card every chance you get, so let's be real here.

Doesn't matter what my values are, I'm an unedcated white trash coal rolling redneck lol but no longer a bald head and never wore a Slayer t shirt lol so doesn't matter what I say, I'm gonna be wrong so u guys keep going pretending, just know that I'm not the only one that can see thru the bullshit.

But DAMN is East Indian food ever good, been learning how to make it lately, fresh rotis and all. Not even joking or being sarcastic.

[Kloubek]

Heavyfuel - you can't make that generalization. You don't know him. Maybe he's a very westernized brown guy and would have no problem with his sister being with a white guy?

My wife is Filipino. Her family doesn't seem to have *any* issues with her being with a white guy. Believe it or not, some people can see straight through racial differences. I can also say that my wife wouldn't side with someone just because they were Flip.... so your insistence that races always stick together is flawed, imo. I mean, it's normal to have a kinship to those with which you share a common bond, but race is just one of those bonds... not the be all, end all.

[Canmorite]

Originally posted by heavyfuel


LOL heeeere we go with the turning it around bullshit... You talk all this crap but you know damn well if ur sister or cousin would be dating/seeing/BANGING a white dude, you'd be out full force 30 strong to enforce your medieval beliefs.
Most of you guys have that "can do no wrong" attitude some (SOME not ALL) of you treat white women like shit (I've seen it) and play the race card every chance you get, so let's be real here.

Doesn't matter what my values are, I'm an unedcated white trash coal rolling redneck lol but no longer a bald head and never wore a Slayer t shirt lol so doesn't matter what I say, I'm gonna be wrong so u guys keep going pretending, just know that I'm not the only one that can see thru the bullshit.

Fuck. How can you assume he has that kind of attitude? I've seen plenty of rednecks treat women (white, brown, et. al. because they're not white) like shit, too.

Originally posted by Kloubek
Heavyfuel - you can't make that generalization. You don't know him. Maybe he's a very westernized brown guy and would have no problem with his sister being with a white guy?

No shit, Heavyfuel you sound like a clown

[spikerS]

not that I agree with heavyfuel in any way, he does have a point, it's weak, but it is a point none the less.

In today's politicly shaped media, we hear of all the extreme cases of immigrants trying to change Canadian values. How often the media refers to insurgents as terrorists and all that jazz when reporting on afganistan and such. It is very hard to NOT have a tainted view.

A couple examples off the top of my head where immigrants were trying to change Canadian culture:
Buddy who wanted to wear a turban while in dress uniform for the RCMP
The ladies that were challenging the driver's licence requirement to have their picture on it without a hijab (or burka, sorry, i can never keep those straight), and that they could not remove it for a police officer kinda thing.

I understand these are one off cases, and the strawman argument that it is extreme and whatever. But we are seeing a fairly consistent pattern of these instances in the media, that it will taint those people that have trouble thinking for themselves.

While I understand Heavyfuel's thinking, those that are easily influenced will subscribe to that train of thought. We need to find ways to fight that.

It is funny, but you should see people's reactions when I tell them that when I lived in Taradale, being white, I was the minority, and yet, in all the places I lived, I never had better neighbours, more friendly, or more social ones. It is a shame more people are not willing to have that experience, it would go a long way to changing the perceptions the media has created.

as for Quebec, we all know they are the true rednecks of Canada. I really wish they truly had separated back in '94 I think it was.

[Gart]

Originally posted by spikers
...... I really wish they truly had separated back in '94 I think it was.

as an aside (as my post count shows: I usually just sit back and watch these discussions):

Wow.. I almost had completely forgot about that.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by spikers
A couple examples off the top of my head where immigrants were trying to change Canadian culture:
Buddy who wanted to wear a turban while in dress uniform for the RCMP
The ladies that were challenging the driver's licence requirement to have their picture on it without a hijab (or burka, sorry, i can never keep those straight), and that they could not remove it for a police officer kinda thing.

...and another instance I remember is a brown guy fighting that he had to wear a helmet on a motorcycle because it wouldn't fit over his turban.

And when you hear stories like this when people are trying to change OUR laws to accomodate their viewpoints, I get aggravated as well. It's just unfair to paint everyone with the same brush, only because select idiots from that race happen to be unreasonable. Just like it is unfair to say that brown guys treat their women like crap. Certainly, some do... and I do believe that some cultures *tend* to as a whole - but for us to tell a guy how he must be thinking and acting based on a preconception we might have is unfair and close-minded.

[heavyfuel]

That's all I'm getting at! I'm sick of us having to change our laws and our cultures and values to accomodate all of these requirements! I'm not racist either, my gf is Chinese and my daughter is half black and I'm a sucker for dark skinned women lol I apologize for the generalizations, I get charged right up on this topic and I refuse to be on eggshells about it, that's all.

[mrsingh]

Originally posted by Kloubek
...and another instance I remember is a brown guy fighting that he had to wear a helmet on a motorcycle because it wouldn't fit over his turban.

I wear a turban and would never ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Realistically if I crash it does not only impact me it costs taxpayers and the healthcare system money, so I do not agree with accomodating here.

Originally posted by spikers
...Buddy who wanted to wear a turban while in dress uniform for the RCMP

Originally posted by heavyfuel
That's all I'm getting at! I'm sick of us having to change our laws and our cultures and values.

Explain to me how someone who is serving the community and putting their life on the line as a police officer is somehow forcing you to abandon your culture, if he requests to follow his articles of faith and wear a turban by doing so. No bullshit answer about your rights being taking away, tell me how YOU are personally affected by this. How does it change your life in any way?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by heavyfuel
I'm not racist either

You aren't racist, but you believe a brown guy is going to beat the shit out of a white guy with 30 other brown guys for dating his sister?

Perhaps you should relearn what racism is.

rac·ism
/ˈrāˌsizəm/
Noun

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

[VWEvo]

Originally posted by heavyfuel


LOL heeeere we go with the turning it around bullshit... You talk all this crap but you know damn well if ur sister or cousin would be dating/seeing/BANGING a white dude, you'd be out full force 30 strong to enforce your medieval beliefs.
Most of you guys have that "can do no wrong" attitude some (SOME not ALL) of you treat white women like shit (I've seen it) and play the race card every chance you get, so let's be real here.

Doesn't matter what my values are, I'm an unedcated white trash coal rolling redneck lol but no longer a bald head and never wore a Slayer t shirt lol so doesn't matter what I say, I'm gonna be wrong so u guys keep going pretending, just know that I'm not the only one that can see thru the bullshit.

But DAMN is East Indian food ever good, been learning how to make it lately, fresh rotis and all. Not even joking or being sarcastic.

I'm not going to get into this, but again your generalizations are exaggerated, and pretty much everything you just wrote proves that you are narrow minded and out of touch with what reality really is.

A lot of Beyonder's know me, and I'm obviously a prime example of why everything you just wrote is completely wrong. FYI my brother in law is a white farmer from Kindersley Saskatchewan and he fits in like everyone else in my family.

As for the issue with Turbans in the RCMP. This is a poor example of suggesting that we aren't conforming to tradition. Considering that Sikhs fought with turbans for the British Army before the RCMP was established shows how rooted the Sikh customs were in British Culture well over a 100 years ago.

I will always respect others opinions, even if I don't agree with them. However the thought of preventing an individual from working in a hospital, government position, school etc. because of their beliefs is ridiculous. Our own Minister of Services here in Alberta wears a Turban, and he is a proud Calgarian, a proud Albertan, and a proud Canadian. He's doing what pretty much 95% would never do, and that's to make this city, province and country a better place to live.

[hampstor]

I'm paraphrasing what an acquitance put on Facebook (he works for the Alberta Government): "Proud to say that I live in a province where the only thing keeping me from going into work is whether I have keys to the office - not that I wear a turban".

I couldn't imagine not being allowed into work because of things such as my race, sex, sexual orientation, political views, and religion (or lack there-of). I don't give a shit if an EMT is jewish/sikh/catholic/hindu/budhist when I call an ambulance. The only thing I care about is the EMT knows what to do.

If the intent was to protect their values, banning one of the most core and historic values of Quebec (Catholicism) doesn't fit into that. The undertone of this appears more like they're targeting the ethnic minorities, and that the impact to catholics (or christians or jews) is all just collatoral damage to reach this goal.

It's an embarassment to the rest of Canada when we're bitching about Russia's position on LGBT and we pull this shit here.

What a slippery slope this is, all under the guise of 'traditional values'.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by mrsingh


I wear a turban and would never ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Realistically if I crash it does not only impact me it costs taxpayers and the healthcare system money, so I do not agree with accomodating here.

Explain to me how someone who is serving the community and putting their life on the line as a police officer is somehow forcing you to abandon your culture, if he requests to follow his articles of faith and wear a turban by doing so. No bullshit answer about your rights being taking away, tell me how YOU are personally affected by this. How does it change your life in any way?

How does the helmet work with the turban?


As for the police officer, I don't think it's about how it affects me, but more about the arrogance of purposefully joining an organization knowing what it's all about, including all their symbols/traditions etc, and then expecting THEM to adapt to you.

Now, the disclaimer.. I don't really care either way... It's all good as far as I'm concerned. According to google, dude is a very good officer.


» Click image for larger version

[spikerS]

Originally posted by mrsingh



Explain to me how someone who is serving the community and putting their life on the line as a police officer is somehow forcing you to abandon your culture, if he requests to follow his articles of faith and wear a turban by doing so. No bullshit answer about your rights being taking away, tell me how YOU are personally affected by this. How does it change your life in any way?

Because the fuckwad knew what standard dress uniform for the RCMP is, INCLUDING the iconic hat. An RCMP officer in dress uniform is pretty much instantly recognizable anywhere in the world. Almost everyone has heard of the mounties.

Personally, I don't have issue with a turban being worn during regular duties, but when a full dress uniform is required, it better be a FULL dress uniform. You don't get to pick and choose. If you want to, you should not be an RCMP officer.

Do you expect a mosque(sp? sorry) to allow a roman catholic priest to take over and perform all the services? You are a retard if you would. You might let him come in to help lead worship, but you would expect him to do so in line with the muslim faith and culture.

Bottom line is, just because we are white, does not mean we have a lack of culture, or immune to racism. Immigrants come to this country, and welcomed (for the most part) with tolerance, it would be nice to get that in return.

[spikerS]

and I also feel the need to say that, all the examples I have given are the exception, not the rule.

[Kloubek]

I get what you're saying Spikers, and I agree to an extent. But at the end of the day, is someone wearing a turban instead of the traditional mountie hat really going to make any true impact on you or your lifestyle? I believe you're fighting it just for the sake of fighting it because you feel a small step like that means we're bending to the will of the immigrants and you fear doing so will get out of control if it starts.

...but it already has started already, and I think we're largely doing just fine.

You talk about Canadian culture - but as a fairly new country, isn't the cultural diversity pretty much what Canada is all about? The mountie hat is something which was put into action by European settlers. The true natives of this land wore a different kind of headwear - so who are we to decide what is truly "tradition"?

For me, it comes down to what makes logical sense. If you ride a bike, you wear a helmet... for the same reasons mrsingh outlined. If you are in the military, you wear a helmet so your head doesn't get shattered. But if there isn't a good reason other than the fact some people simply want to maintain what they view as tradition, I don't feel that is a particularly concrete basis on which to stand.

Back to the original reason for the discussion: I don't think this is a good idea at all. I am completely agnostic when it comes to religion and feel it is likely a huge farce that is a incredible waste of time and money. But if it enhances someone's life and they wish to have religious jewelry, etc showing their faith, I have no problem with that. I think it is far easier to remain status quo rather than rewrite the law to remove such items from viewing.

[mrsingh]

Originally posted by heavyfuel
LOL heeeere we go with the turning it around bullshit... You talk all this crap but you know damn well if ur sister or cousin would be dating/seeing/BANGING a white dude, you'd be out full force 30 strong to enforce your medieval beliefs.

Not sure what is so funny about the topic, while this was directed at VWEvo I feel compelled to respond and say that broad generalizations such as this are dangerous and incredibly narrow minded. There are many members of my family who are in mixed marriage, no one cares and it is really a non-issue.

For people outside of my family, those who have issues are typically first generation immigrants, as people live in the west longer they do adapt.

Originally posted by spikers
Because the fuckwad knew what standard dress uniform for the RCMP is, INCLUDING the iconic hat. An RCMP officer in dress uniform is pretty much instantly recognizable anywhere in the world. Almost everyone has heard of the mounties.

The person in question (who you are calling a fuckwad) has been an active member for 20 years now and has served Canadians with distinction.

It is obvious that by allowing him to wear his turban we did the RCMP and Canadians a disservice and the entire organization has fallen into disarray. This has shamed them and made them the laughing stock of the world... NOT

My questions was how did it change YOUR life, unless you are having nightmares of an RCMP officer wearing a turban kidnapping you at night, it really hasn't impacted your life one bit. But, it impacted his life and gave him a chance to serve the country he loves.

This also laid the foundation for my brother-in-law to serve Canada, the country he was born in and loves, as a member of the Canadian Armed Forces in Afghanistan as a turbaned Sikh. He risked his life for the same rights and freedoms we are arguing about now.

Originally posted by spikers
Do you expect a mosque to allow a roman catholic priest to take over and perform all the services? You are a retard if you would. You might let him come in to help lead worship, but you would expect him to do so in line with the muslim faith and culture.

Not sure how this is relevant, I was discussing the turban, a Sikh article of faith. Sikh's don't go to mosques and as such I can't answer this question.

Originally posted by codetrap
How does the helmet work with the turban?

Most Sikh's who wear turbans wear a very small under turban beneath it (maybe one wrap of cloth) known as a keski. When I walk onto a construction site, I remove my turban leaving only my keski and put on a hard hat. The same for wearing a motorcycle helmet.

Originally posted by Kloubek
I get what you're saying Spikers, and I agree to an extent. But at the end of the day, is someone wearing a turban instead of the traditional mountie hat really going to make any true impact on you or your lifestyle? I believe you're fighting it just for the sake of fighting it because you feel a small step like that means we're bending to the will of the immigrants and you fear doing so will get out of control if it starts.

...but it already has started already, and I think we're largely doing just fine.

This is exactly my point, thanks Kloubek. End of the day people make a big deal and whine about a lot of things impacting their rights and their freedoms, when in reality they do not really have an effect on them at all.

With that I am done commenting in this thread, as it was never my intention to hijack it.

With regards to what the PQ is doing in Quebec with the values charter, it is a political move by the party to try and re-energize their traditional base enough to split the vote and get a majority government. It is a hail mary pass, nothing more and nothing less. It is sad in this day and age that such an issue is even being discussed. Although after reading some of the responses in this thread I am not only surprised but disappointed as well.

[bignerd]

Not sure I agree with Quebec.

Someone wearing a turban or star of david while working or serving/assisting me does not bother me.

I suppose if I worked in an office and a coworker had some sort of shrine on their desk and was playing religious music and praying all the time that could make things a little awkward, but necklaces and stuff? really?

The burka/hijab thing I do agree on for some things, they need to be removed for government ID, if you are a witness at court, for voting etc.

And sorry, I do agree on the RCMP thing, thats history and pretty sure you are aware of the uniform requirments before going into that field. If you can remove your turban to wear a motorcycle helmet pretty sure you can remove it to wear a uniform?

Do they allow turbans to be worn in the army/navy/airforce?

[frizzlefry]

Don't mean to be insensitive here but from what I understand the hair under a turban is rather long. I would think it less professional to be served by Slash as opposed to a dude with a turban.

[thetransporter]