Realtors being accountable for their listings

[msommers]

I had a bit of reservation about posting this as many people know who I am on this board but I need to broaden my audience of folks who may be in the know.

A quick background: I recently bought an older condo that ticked off a lot of boxes in my "needs" column. One of which was a condo with concrete construction as wood frame had a tendency to transmit sound more readily than concrete. I feel like I got a good price on this place, did all my checks including condo doc review and home inspection before finally signing.

Shortly after possession I did some minor repairs and also some upgrades: replaced some ceiling drywall in the bathroom and all new flooring. It was upon starting these renovations that this condo was in fact a wood frame and not a concrete one as it said in the listing.

I was furious and everyone involved knew how much so rather quickly. My realtor said she would speak with someone at the real estate board on how to proceed and I also gave my lawyer a head's up of what is happening. After this I went to down to the City and pulled blueprints, and even spoke to the architect, all of which confirmed this was a wood frame building.

Today I finally received a response from someone at the real estate board:

Well maybe but.... We don't know what representations were made about construction by the seller to the realtor on the other side of this if any. We don't know if the listing realtor assumed it was concrete or perhaps knew it was would frame and it was entered wrong on the MLS so we are still working in a bit of a vacuum.

At the end of the day even though someone may and I stress may have made an error it does not necessarily and immediately mean that a buyer has a claim for damages.

The error has to have put a buyer into a position where they have suffered damages. I do not at this point see that here. The property is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. No more and no less. If the comparables were consistent then the buyer may not like what he or she has but there are no damages.

We have seen many cases of wood v concrete basements and a buyer being upset over finding out and suing after the fact over wood instead of concrete. The value of the home was the same so at the end of the day there were no damages.

Finally given no one that was a party to this deal had any idea what this was made of including the inspector then how is anyone going to be found liable. I think the buyer would have a tough case to make.

Again, my blood is boiling. The impression that I'm getting from this is that essentially there is no way to prove "damages," and the selling realtor gets off with zero repercussions meanwhile I have a property which I did not intend to buy, and having a wood frame which I feel decreases the appeal and therefore value of the condo.

I've forwarded everything to my lawyer whom I'm waiting to hear back from.

I've put in a decent amount of money with new appliances and renos, not to mention many, many hours of my own time to make this place my own, only to find out later it's not the property I thought I bought. The thought of moving already makes my head hurt and I doubt I'll recover my costs this quickly into the purchase. Not to mention there is no way physically to view homes right now with my work schedule which involves being out of town for days or up to several weeks at a time.

I feel I'm not at fault, neither is my realtor, nor the home inspector. The condo doc review company potentially but ultimately, the selling realtor fucked up and I feel there should be compensation. How is a buyer supposed to have any confidence in listings when the realtor doesn't appear to be accountable for what's on it?!

Thoughts?

[ercchry]

well if a murder suicide gets you a free house in quebec... i'd expect at least 25% off for this, your lawyer will know best.... but from personal experience, i'd get one that doesnt just write real estate deals all day to handle it... since those guys dont seem to be very motivated after the deal is done

[2.2vtec]

Why wouldn't your real estate agent be on the same hook as the seller? Shouldn't your agent be on the look out for his clients best interest.

If the selling agent said it was more square footage, is it fair for your agent to just trust it? I think it works both ways for the listing and buying agent.

[revelations]

Its one of those things were someone fucked up (realtor typically, some of them shouldnt be allowed to own a PC) and the end result is that you MIGHT be able to sue for damages.... and in the end its probably not worth your while.

Did the inspector or the doc review company *specifically* know you wanted a concrete building ?

I can tell you that I specifically looked for a concrete condo when I bought mine.... and I went around and banged on the walls to MAKE SURE the realtor wasnt a complete clown. As is typical, t only walls that are concrete are between neighbours. They didnt even bother with sound insulation into the hallway walls.

No wood structures should have people stacked in like that, and then expect privacy.

[BigMass]

Sorry to hear that man, i would be just as upset as you but maybe i can help lessen your panic. Has noise been an issue for you? Almost all 4 story condos in the beltline are wood and I don't think that would detract a buyer from it. A 4 story concrete building would be a rare exception. And where you purchased your condo, there are no high-rises so wood would be the standard. So I don't think you should worry about resale because of that fact. My thoughts and many other buyer's in general is "lowrise / wood, highrise / concrete"

[msommers]

Originally posted by ercchry
well if a murder suicide gets you a free house in quebec... i'd expect at least 25% off for this, your lawyer will know best.... but from personal experience, i'd get one that doesnt just write real estate deals all day to handle it... since those guys dont seem to be very motivated after the deal is done

I'll consider elsewhere after I hear back, thanks.

Originally posted by 2.2vtec
Why wouldn't your real estate agent be on the same hook as the seller? Shouldn't your agent be on the look out for his clients best interest.

If the selling agent said it was more square footage, is it fair for your agent to just trust it? I think it works both ways for the listing and buying agent.

If I bought a car and found out a year after buying it that they put the wrong engine in it, is my fault for not checking or the seller's fault for incorrectly describing the engine that it was supposed to come with? The seller fucked up. End of story.

[410440]

Originally posted by msommers


I'll consider elsewhere after I hear back, thanks.




If I bought a car and found out a year after buying it that they put the wrong engine in it, is my fault for not checking or the seller's fault for incorrectly describing the engine that it was supposed to come with? The seller fucked up. End of story.

If you bought a car and a year later noticed it had a different engine... you are an idiot.


The concrete walls are a different story, lets compare apple to apples here, not vtec to my little pony.


Could you not have knocked on the walls and have known pretty quick if they were wood or concrete? i mean, maybe its just me.. but i assume everyone is fucking stupid and dont trust anything unless i can verify it myself... something like concrete walls vs. wood i would think would be pretty easy to verify

[Mibz]

What sort of compensation are you looking for?

Originally posted by 410440
Could you not have knocked on the walls and have known pretty quick if they were wood or concrete?

This is a slippery slope. How far can you reasonably expect somebody to go to prove that what they're getting is as advertised? Even using the example above, I bet the majority of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an I4 and V6 if you popped the hood for them. Is it their fault if they get one instead of the other? What if somebody doesn't know what concrete vs wood sounds like? You should be able to trust that you're getting precisely what you asked for.

That said, normally I'd say anything you don't put on paper is something you can't complain about being missing. This is a weird one though. I dunno.

[msommers]

Originally posted by revelations
Did the inspector or the doc review company *specifically* know you wanted a concrete building ?

No they did not. However my realtor explicitly knew that and was the only reason this listing showed up in my email.

Sound is a problem above me. I had a friend over and I caught him checking above or the door as it sounds like someone is coming in my patio door. He also lives in a wood frame with someone living above him, and does not have this issue at all.

Originally posted by BigMass
Sorry to hear that man, i would be just as upset as you but maybe i can help lessen your panic. Has noise been an issue for you? Almost all 4 story condos in the beltline are wood and I don't think that would detract a buyer from it. A 4 story concrete building would be a rare exception. And where you purchased your condo, there are no high-rises so wood would be the standard. So I don't think you should worry about resale because of that fact. My thoughts and many other buyer's in general is "lowrise / wood, highrise / concrete"

That was my impression as well because I spoke with an engineer who used to designed low-rise places. But he said with older buildings this could be an exception.

I'm just astounded by the apparent lack of accountability with something so major as a home.

[88CRX]

Does the building have a gypcrete topping on the floors? Could be some confusion there.

[msommers]

Originally posted by 410440


If you bought a car and a year later noticed it had a different engine... you are an idiot.


The concrete walls are a different story, lets compare apple to apples here, not vtec to my little pony.


Could you not have knocked on the walls and have known pretty quick if they were wood or concrete? i mean, maybe its just me.. but i assume everyone is fucking stupid and dont trust anything unless i can verify it myself... something like concrete walls vs. wood i would think would be pretty easy to verify

This is a car forum, of course you'd say that. But the analogy still stands. A seller is responsible for providing you an item they described in a contract.

Regardless, yes I could have knocked and with my "all wise ability" been able to tell the difference, but I'm not an expert so it wouldn't have mattered. That's why I paid people to look at everything. Home inspectors are only responsible for what's in the unit. Condo docs are responsible for the reviewing the documents they receive. They did receive a reserve study which does include an overall assessment for repairs based on out-of-unit features (roof, hallway, boilers etc). This is why they might be on the hook but the study does not assess above-foundation construction (how could you).

Originally posted by Mibz
What sort of compensation are you looking for?

At this point, nothing has been finalized.

Originally posted by 88CRX
Does the building have a gypcrete topping on the floors? Could be some confusion there.

Yes it does. But the only way to know this would be to look at blueprints or tear up the floor.

[410440]

Originally posted by msommers


This is a car forum, of course you'd say that. But the analogy still stands. A seller is responsible for providing you an item they described in a contract.

Regardless, yes I could have knocked and with my "all wise ability" been able to tell the difference, but I'm not an expert so it wouldn't have mattered. That's why I paid people to look at everything. Home inspectors are only responsible for what's in the unit. Condo docs are responsible for the reviewing the documents they receive. They did receive a reserve study which does include an overall assessment for repairs based on out-of-unit features (roof, hallway, boilers etc). This is why they might be on the hook but the study does not assess above-foundation construction (how could you).




At this point, nothing has been finalized.



Yes it does. But the only way to know this would be to look at blueprints or tear up the floor.

out of curiosity did you specifically ask your home inspector to verify it had concrete walls? if you did, you might have some recourse against them ?

I'm just sayin' man, if concrete walls were the make all break all for your deal, i would have done more than just ask the selling agent.. maybe had a caveat in the buying agreement pending blue print inspection

[in*10*se]

Originally posted by msommers
I had a bit of reservation about posting this as many people know who I am on this board but I need to broaden my audience of folks who may be in the know.

A quick background: I recently bought an older condo that ticked off a lot of boxes in my "needs" column. One of which was a condo with concrete construction as wood frame had a tendency to transmit sound more readily than concrete. I feel like I got a good price on this place, did all my checks including condo doc review and home inspection before finally signing.

Shortly after possession I did some minor repairs and also some upgrades: replaced some ceiling drywall in the bathroom and all new flooring. It was upon starting these renovations that this condo was in fact a wood frame and not a concrete one as it said in the listing.

I was furious and everyone involved knew how much so rather quickly. My realtor said she would speak with someone at the real estate board on how to proceed and I also gave my lawyer a head's up of what is happening. After this I went to down to the City and pulled blueprints, and even spoke to the architect, all of which confirmed this was a wood frame building.

Today I finally received a response from someone at the real estate board:



Again, my blood is boiling. The impression that I'm getting from this is that essentially there is no way to prove "damages," and the selling realtor gets off with zero repercussions meanwhile I have a property which I did not intend to buy, and having a wood frame which I feel decreases the appeal and therefore value of the condo.

I've forwarded everything to my lawyer whom I'm waiting to hear back from.

I've put in a decent amount of money with new appliances and renos, not to mention many, many hours of my own time to make this place my own, only to find out later it's not the property I thought I bought. The thought of moving already makes my head hurt and I doubt I'll recover my costs this quickly into the purchase. Not to mention there is no way physically to view homes right now with my work schedule which involves being out of town for days or up to several weeks at a time.

I feel I'm not at fault, neither is my realtor, nor the home inspector. The condo doc review company potentially but ultimately, the selling realtor fucked up and I feel there should be compensation. How is a buyer supposed to have any confidence in listings when the realtor doesn't appear to be accountable for what's on it?!

Thoughts? [/B]

Maybe next time if you have reservations about the build of a condo you'll check the blueprints w/ the builder next time... caveat emptor
however, i do feel for you and i feel the same way about the accountability of realtors.

The error has to have put a buyer into a position where they have suffered damages. I do not at this point see that here. The property is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. No more and no less. If the comparables were consistent then the buyer may not like what he or she has but there are no damages.

There is a point here: Had you known the property was wood, you would not have been prepared to pay what you paid....
i'd be pissed too...
your miracle scenario is you get to move out and the possession is reversed, i doubt this so much.
your likely scenario is you're stuck with it, and lesson learned about due diligence.

good luck.

[bignerd]

The home inspector did not know what kind of construction it was? Seems kind of odd to me.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by msommers
Yes it does. But the only way to know this would be to look at blueprints or tear up the floor.

So technically there is concrete in the building….. see where I’m going?

What were you expecting with ‘concrete construction’ anyways? Concrete floors and concrete party/corridor wall?

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by 410440
I'm just sayin' man, if concrete walls were the make all break all for your deal, i would have done more than just ask the selling agent.. maybe had a caveat in the buying agreement pending blue print inspection

I agree. It sucks you got hosed msommers and you have a right to be pissed, but you really should have done your due diligence in ensuring the information was correct if this was so important to you.

[msommers]

Originally posted by 410440
out of curiosity did you specifically ask your home inspector to verify it had concrete walls? if you did, you might have some recourse against them ?

I'm just sayin' man, if concrete walls were the make all break all for your deal, i would have done more than just ask the selling agent.. maybe had a caveat in the buying agreement pending blue print inspection

I know you're not fighting, just making a point and I get that. But when I see a listing and under construction type it says one thing, I did not expect I needed to verify that down at the city. Have you heard of anyone you know personally doing this?

Originally posted by in*10*se
Maybe next time if you have reservations about the build of a condo you'll check the blueprints w/ the builder next time... caveat emptor
however, i do feel for you and i feel the same way about the accountability of realtors.



There is a point here: Had you known the property was wood, you would not have been prepared to pay what you paid....
i'd be pissed too...
your miracle scenario is you get to move out and the possession is reversed, i doubt this so much.
your likely scenario is you're stuck with it, and lesson learned about due diligence.

good luck.

See above. I can't think of a single person who has pulled blueprints on a 30 year old building to check the construction. And it did not occur to me that this was part of the process of condo buying.

Originally posted by bignerd
The home inspector did not know what kind of construction it was? Seems kind of odd to me.

He was very clear he is only responsible for things in the unit. I say this because I wasn't happy he didn't check the roof or the boiler room, which he said in a condo they don't do.

Originally posted by 88CRX
So technically there is concrete in the building….. see where I’m going?

What were you expecting with ‘concrete construction’ anyways? Concrete floors and concrete party/corridor wall?

That is what I was expecting, as that is the construction by code in high-rises. There is no difference in a listing from concrete construction in a high- vs. low-riseI'm not an expert in gypcrete but I don't think it qualifies as a type of concrete but instead a fire-retardant.

Originally posted by Kloubek


I agree. It sucks you got hosed msommers and you have a right to be pissed, but you really should have done your due diligence in ensuring the information was correct if this was so important to you.

It's hindsight now but at the time, the information on a listing as I understood was what you were getting. It's like having a detached garage on a listing and asking if it's included.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by bignerd
The home inspector did not know what kind of construction it was? Seems kind of odd to me.

I can't speak for all home inspectors, but I know the one I hired was an idiot. He got so many things wrong, it wasn't even funny. The most glaring was when he told me about a pressure relief valve not being where it should in my water system. Turns out it was the valve for the underground sprinkler system.

[msommers]

At the end of the day I understand that this is likely a legal matter. It was also not a thread seeking pity. It was strictly for advice going forward, not what I could have, or should have done, before signing.

I paid for a listing that was later found to be inaccurate. Now I need to see what my options are.

Thanks.

[faiz999]

sorry to hear about your situation. cant add nothing other than good luck