Ottawa baby girl loses most of her nose in pit bull attack

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
White trash dogs.
White trash people.
White trash problems.

Nothing more to see here. Move along everyone.

This, and I'm white.

[Thomas Gabriel]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch
White trash dogs.
White trash people.
White trash problems.

Nothing more to see here. Move along everyone.

Yeah except it's white yuppies now too.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Kloubek


Yeah, I agree with this. In no way have we done any kind of "intruder training" or anything of the like with our Staffy. He'll naturally defend us if required; no need to make him any more aggressive.

Actually proper guard training is not supposed to make the dog more aggressive. You are just shaping the aggression that's already there so that the dog applies it properly and learns to control it. Actually makes the dog safer. Attacking is actually one of the last, and easiest, things to teach.

This is what some guys at a guard dog training facility taught us for training a guard dog for the home. In the back yard have the dog on a leash. Have a friend/family member dress up in something that obscures their appearance and is something they don't normally wear so their scent is not on it. Have them sneak into the yard. The minute the dog even notices them raise your hand signalling the "baddie" to turn and run away. Repeat and repeat. Then only raise your hand when the dog changes his posture to something more aggressive. Escalate to have the baddie run only if the dog quietly growls and so and so on until the dog gets really pissed and starts barking. Mix it up with the previous triggers like posture alone or quiet growls. Over and over and over and over.

This does a couple things:
a) The dog becomes confident, learns that an attack is not needed to drive off a threat and simply telling someone to fuck off should be enough. A confident dog does not fear bite or bite suddenly without ample warning
b) The dog learns the commands to turn off the aggression. Also learns the commands to turn it on if you happen to see something they don't
c) Fearful situations are now handled confidently. The dog will always give warning before attacking because its not afraid and knows that a scary person does not necessarily mean harm to me.

With pits this does not work very well. You can train to escalate for sure but most are not receptive to the level of dominance required to turn off the aggression. That's the dangerous part. On top of that most people who buy a "bad ass pit" aren't training them right anyway and just teaching them to be vicious.

I tell anyone who tells me they have a new shepherd or Doberman puppy to get them trained, at least at a basic level, in proper guard dog techniques. The aggression is there, whether you do guard training or not, and the owner (and dog) need to learn to properly use it and control it.

Lack of this training leads to German Shepherds biting. Most shepherd bites can be attributed to miss-read body language. If the dog knew that they should communicate "fuck off" before attacking these bites would not happen.

[Kloubek]

Interesting read fizzlefry - thanks for that. Normally when I form an opinion it is based on research and experience, but I will admit I guess I made an uninformed assumption regarding guard dog training.

One more thing I wanted to mention: I play real rough with my dog. Besides protecting my family, I got a strong dog to ensure that I can roughhouse with him without inadvertently hurting him. Letting him get all excited when I play with him this way probably completely goes against what someone like Cesar Milan would teach, but with both get a lot of enjoyment out of it. (Even if my arms sometimes end up bruised and bleeding from accidental scratches, etc)

The only reason I deem this kind of play acceptable is because no matter how excited he gets, all I need to do is change my posture and hold up my hand, and he stops instantly. It's actually quite amazing how quickly I can get him from all snarling and physical to being completely relaxed. I'd say in general, it takes anywhere from 2-5 seconds for this to occur. By the end of that, I can calmly whisper any command and he will perform it. Lay down, on your side, etc.

I'm not suggesting anyone lets their powerful breeds get excited like I do. It probably isn't healthy, since the dominant being is supposed to keep all situations under control. But if owners choose to, I want to say that I believe it is important for the dog to understand it is just play, and the moment you want to stop, he stops. The same goes for playing tug-of-war as well. I often stop abruptly mid-way through play to ensure he de-escalates immediately, as well as understands that the rope is mine and he is only allowed to battle me with it when I deem it ok.

Again, I think it is very important for people with any kind of "dangerous" breed to ensure that their dog listens to them no matter how intense they get while playing. Or even walking. I have a neighbor with a pitbull and occasionally see them out for walks. The dog is always rushing ahead of the owner, and I think that kind of attitude can only lead to trouble.

[busdepot]

This is entirely the fault of dumb owners. This has nothing to do with the breed. I don't care what you think you know about animals and dogs, but they should not be around 1 year old children. Period. There is absolutely no reason to have a dog and a child playing at one year old. Zero.

Even though dogs can be expertly trained and whatever else, they are still animals. Their instincts are not always predictable even though your dog is "great with kids" and "would never bite anyone". There is no certainty there. I would never in a million years endanger my own child's life like that. Put these dipshit parents in jail. Not to say that I'm going to be a mega overprotective parent, but this poor kid can't even walk yet and now her life is fucked thanks to her fucking idiot parents.

[Supa Dexta]

I've told this story before, but 20 years ago now I knew a family who's small kid was playing with a great dog, the dog had a stick and shook his head back and forth like they always do, getting the kid in the eye and killing him. You never know what can happen.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by busdepot
There is absolutely no reason to have a dog and a child playing at one year old. Zero.

I agree somewhat. I think the comfort level can be at least increased when the dog has a history of being good with kids and the parents/owners properly monitor and assess the dog's body language. Of course, your points about a dogs being still animals is entirely valid - I guess it just depends how careful a parent wants to be. Having a toddler at this point, I know how difficult it can be to keep the two separated at all times.

When our son was under 1 year old, we kept our dog back. There was no contact allowed for the first 6 months, and only brief contact allowed under arms-length supervision after that. Now that he's 1 1/2, we're monitored how the two interact. While we're still not comfortable just leaving them alone in a room together, we're becoming less and less concerned. At this point, we're really just keeping an eye out to make sure neither dog nor child are cornered, or in any dangerous-looking scenarios like that.

Supa: What a horrible tragedy - and, really, who would have imagined that would have happened? While the parents could (and should) have been more careful, their mistake is probably one that millions have made without incident.

[cancer man]

One of my customers told me a story about a cat that slept on the babies face
and suffocated the baby.

[D. Dub]

What I don't get about the whole pit bull defenders defence is this:

Let me lay the stage first. I have 2 different herding dogs -- a border collie cross that circles, and stalks and uses its eyes to stare at the people or cats or other dogs its trying to herd.

My other dog is an Australian Cattle Dog and it herds people and cats and cars and dogs by nipping and yipping at them. Nipping their noses and butts to be more precise.

My dogs have these instinctual/hereditary herding behaviours that are "just there" bc of breeding.

Now why is it not possible that fighting dogs that were bred to fight and kill -- would not inherently and willfully perform these inbred behaviours?

And don't give me that stupid argument that they were bred to gentle to humans because dogs transfer most canine behaviours to humans as a rule.

Any thoughts?

[gretz]

Did you own both dogs from pups and they just naturally know how to herd cattle / animals?

[JAYMEZ]

Im not to sure about your to dogs , but the "Pitbull type" of dog is not a distinct breed . So many dogs can fall under the category of Pitbull .

The fighting type dogs didn't have the choice or want to fight . Have you seen what humans do to the dogs that fight ? Bait dogs , and starving and feeding / beating them . Any dog or human would probably do the same .

You can follow what happened to Michael Vicks fighting dogs here
http://parade.condenast.com/48473/ji...15-vicks-dogs/

As for one of my dogs , she was a bait dog . She has a lot of scars all over her , and I don't go a day without people saying how well and happy she is .

And as for the white trash comments , I am far from white trash . So thanks for coming out .



Also random article I found

A study by Raghaven in Canada, which showed that breed specific legislation limits the number of pitbulls, and where sled dogs and free roaming packs of dogs is more common than in the United States, an electronic search of newspaper articles found that pit bull terriers were responsible for 1 (4%) of 28 dog-bite-related fatalities reported in Canada from 1990–2007.[37]

The study also noted that:

"A higher proportion of sled dogs and, possibly, mixed-breed dogs in Canada than in the United States caused fatalities, as did multiple dogs rather than single dogs. Free-roaming dog packs, reported only from rural communities, caused most on-reserve fatalities."
In a project called the "Calgary Model," legislation addressing bad owners instead of breeds has been the focus. After implementation, which included fining the owner $350–$1,500 in dog bite cases, there was a 25-year low in the incidence of such cases

[blairtruck]

i think i read edmonton lifted the breed ban last year?

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by D. Dub
My dogs have these instinctual/hereditary herding behaviours that are "just there" bc of breeding.

Now why is it not possible that fighting dogs that were bred to fight and kill -- would not inherently and willfully perform these inbred behaviours?

And don't give me that stupid argument that they were bred to gentle to humans because dogs transfer most canine behaviours to humans as a rule.

I don't agree with you at all. Where is the proof that dogs transfer all their behaviors to humans? I'd like to see this from a reputable source, if you don't mind. I can tell you absolutely that my dog interacts with humans WAY different than he does with other dogs.

And to your original point: It's all about breeding, as you already stated in your own post. A reputable breeder will take the best traits and base their bloodlines on that. In the case of dogs which came from fighting stock, the instinct should be at largely bred out of them by now. The instinct to kill is something that was added to the breed by man, and it's something that can eventually be removed by man as well. Is it out of all pitbulls yet? I'd say probably not - but I think that has more to do with puppy mills, non-reputable breeders, and the fact that dog fighting bans is a fairly recent thing, and the "maturity" of the bloodlines varies.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by D. Dub


And don't give me that stupid argument that they were bred to gentle to humans because dogs transfer most canine behaviours to humans as a rule.

Any thoughts?

I think we should experiment and breed convicted murderers with psychopaths and then all act surprised when these children go on psychopathic murdering sprees. Then we'll blame their parents... Oh, Wait...

[Toma]

Of course it genetics. Silly argument even 20 years later.

Sheesh.

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch


I think we should experiment and breed convicted murderers with psychopaths and then all act surprised when these children go on psychopathic murdering sprees. Then we'll blame their parents... Oh, Wait...

I love arguments like this ... comparing humans and animals . We totally share the same traits and beliefs

[Thomas Gabriel]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ



I love arguments like this ... comparing humans and animals . We totally share the same traits and beliefs

You don't think it's possible to breed an extremely violent animal?

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by Thomas Gabriel


You don't think it's possible to breed an extremely violent animal?

To naturally from birth be violent ? What are we breeding here ?

From birth ? What would you be breeding to make an animal to want to kill without human influence ? A wolf or what ?

It almost seems similar to the argument about we are all born not racist , just the influence around us makes our values change .

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Kloubek
Interesting read fizzlefry - thanks for that.

No problem. People forget that aggression is a natural, and primary, element to any pack of wolves or wild canines. Wolves are taught by their pack how to properly use aggression to communicate. If they attacked at the slightest threat the species would be doomed. So, it's something that needs to be taught by human owners as well but owning a pet dog is all cuddles and fetch. They don't learn how to use their aggression and the minute that aggression instinct kicks in they have no idea what to do. Some hide, some run, some act submissively and some bite.

ALL breeds can benefit from same basic guard training. I say guard training but, at a basic level, you are really training "what to do when you are mad or scared".

Originally posted by JAYMEZ
The fighting type dogs didn't have the choice or want to fight . Have you seen what humans do to the dogs that fight ? Bait dogs , and starving and feeding / beating them . Any dog or human would probably do the same .

I completely agree that what people do to fighting dogs is disgusting. I also don't think that bully breeds are more aggressive but, as I mentioned before, many do not respond well to dominance because they are bred to fight which can lead to biting as they see themselves as the alpha AND have not been taught how to properly escalate their aggression...quite the opposite in fact.

If you are beating a dog and treating them like crap the dogs will split into different "camps". The ones that submit and the ones that don't. The ones that submit are used as bait dogs. The ones that don't are encouraged to become vicious and used to fight. And, in those circles, are the ones used to breed (non-submission is a desirable trait) resulting in a high risk of adopting a dog predisposed to dominance. I am not saying its unique to bully breeds, it's not. I would say ANY litter has a mega alpha in there somewhere. Its just with bully breeds it's more likely to have a whole litter of them.

I am sure a bait dog would be a wonderful pet. If they were a bait dog then they likely expressed the ability to submit early on. It was their innate temperament and not a breed characteristic they wanted.

IMO if the powers that be wanted to fix the "plague" of bully breeds tearing apart people then come down on the damn people breeding them for fighting. Crush that culture with a sledgehammer. After a couple of generations of pits not being bred for fighting the mega-alpha dominance trait would dramatically reduce. Once that happens pits would likely be considered one of the friendliest breeds to get.

*edit* Also JAYMEZ I would like to give you props for adopting a pit. . Wife and I have thought about it once we get a house. There is certainly no shortage of pits to adopt given the ban in Ontario. But that ban has forced breeding "underground" and we are not sure if we want to take the risk of adopting because of the high probability of getting a "fighting" dog due to the fact that the ban has basically ensured only people who fight them are breeding them. I know that my experience and how I train dogs has a high likelihood of failure because I train for guard duty and want a guard dog. We really want a Boerboel but good luck adopting one of those But, again, props to you.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by JAYMEZ



No its always the owner , Putz




Good watch for dog people

Just an FYI for people. Cesar Millan is not an amazing dog trainer. He is a FANTASIC dog owner, but not trainer for the masses. Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called "What the dog saw". Its not about about dog training, its a collection of stories about various misinterpreted things people think are something they are not.

Anyways, there is a chapter about Cesar and it inspired the title of the book. He used to be a ballroom dancer. He has a way of movement about him that is very graceful and a natural body language communicator for dogs. He does it 24/7. Its just how he is. His books try to train common techniques on dog training and also touch on how moving like him can be of great benefit. But no one moves like him 24/7.

This is why, on his show, he often takes dogs away to his place to live with him while he trains. He has a natural grace which enables him to quickly (and amazingly!) rehab dogs so fast. But its not possible to move like him 24/7 in your own home. You are not Cesar.

Brad Pattison (TV guy from "At The End Of My Leash) is a far better trainer as he does not "kidnap" dogs to his place to miraculously cure them. He teaches the owners how to work within their own homes and their personalities.

Better guy to read about training from.