Quantcast
Building new bigger roads is not the solution - Beyond.ca - Car Forums
Page 1 of 4 1 2 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 67

Thread: Building new bigger roads is not the solution

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Calgary
    My Ride
    Tesla Model 3 AWD
    Posts
    443
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Building new bigger roads is not the solution

    There are lots and lots of ideas on beyond about how to curb traffic, its something everyone has an opinion about. Build more lanes, teach people how to drive etc, the thing is all these are just opinions with no evidence that they will work.

    Here is a nice simple and interesting read on why building bigger roads will not work backed by real research. In fact they go on to say expanding public transit doesn't even help congestion which is hard to believe. It also comes with a suggestion to solve congestion:

    http://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-tr...nduced-demand/

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    130
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    i think certain roads NEED to be bigger as well, like deerfoot and crowfoot. there should not be bottlenecks on major arteries like there is right now.

    i think if governments wait just a bit longer and hold off on major roads being built, the new generation of self driving cars may solve alot of the issues we have. the cars would be smaller, would be more "synced" when it comes to spacing and speed and also could be used as a communal service, much like public transit.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Elbonia
    My Ride
    Jeep of Theseus
    Posts
    6,827
    Rep Power
    48

    Default

    If a city had increased its road capacity by 10 percent between 1980 and 1990, then the amount of driving in that city went up by 10 percent. If the amount of roads in the same city then went up by 11 percent between 1990 and 2000, the total number of miles driven also went up by 11 percent. It’s like the two figures were moving in perfect lockstep, changing at the same exact rate.

    Now, correlation doesn’t mean causation. Maybe traffic engineers in U.S. cities happen to know exactly the right amount of roads to build to satisfy driving demand. But Turner and Duranton think that’s unlikely.

    A more likely explanation, Turner and Duranton argue, is what they call the fundamental law of road congestion: new roads will create new drivers, resulting in the intensity of traffic staying the same.
    So the entire argument is predicated on the assumption that transportation engineers are utterly hapless at predicting growth and there is no possibility that all the year-round analysis they do does in fact lead to road capacity staying in step with growth. Unpossible. Instead, they've created for themselves a (modestly named) Fundamental Law Of Road Congestion, that says, magically, congestion is constant and bygawd we might as well tax it then.

    So, how do they figure taxation will solve everything?


    What Turner and Duranton (and many others who’d like to see more rational transportation policy) actually advocate is known as congestion pricing.

    This means raising the price of driving on a road when demand is high. During rush hour, drivers would have to pay a fee to use the most congested roads. A few people will balk at the price and say to themselves, “I don’t really need to make this trip right now, I’ll go later.” Roads in your city actually have a great deal of underused capacity. Think about how they sit mostly empty, in the early afternoon, late evening, and at night. If we gave drivers some extra incentive to avoid the most congested hours, we could better utilize the roads’ capacities. The extra cost of driving would also make public transit a more attractive option, leading to more people using it.
    So the solution is that taxation will reduce congestion via giving people incentive to drive at non-peak hours - that's not an idea wholly without merit, but is anyone on Deerfoot at 8AM and 5PM there voluntarily? Congestion in Calgary only really happens during rush hour and unless you think companies are going to start randomizing working hours to avoid a congestion tax, it's foolish to think such an idea would solve anything.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Calgary
    My Ride
    Tesla Model 3 AWD
    Posts
    443
    Rep Power
    18

    Default

    Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


    So the solution is that taxation will reduce congestion via giving people incentive to drive at non-peak hours - that's not an idea wholly without merit, but is anyone on Deerfoot at 8AM and 5PM there voluntarily? Congestion in Calgary only really happens during rush hour and unless you think companies are going to start randomizing working hours to avoid a congestion tax, it's foolish to think such an idea would solve anything.
    I actually think it will work. I think there is a good percentage of cars on the road that are there for businesses, those costs will affect business decisions. There is a good chunk of people who will think twice about taking the rush hour commute and choose to go earlier and leave later. Then there will be the students and those that maybe can't afford the price tag and decide to take alternative means of transport. Carpooling will also now have a financial incentive. All these things add up and might make a winning formula. I think it would be great as a trial on the major roads, Deerfoot, crowchild, glenmore etc.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    YYC
    My Ride
    1 x E Class Benz
    Posts
    23,598
    Rep Power
    101

    Default

    That article is spot on, and it's what I'm for as well. It's all supply and demand, and why I'm for adding tolls to roads. Visit the big US cities with toll roads, and they aren't congested at all.

    With that being said though, we can not simply add tolls and price drivers that can not afford it out of transportation. There needs to be a good balance between roads for drivers, and transit/public transportation for alternate methods of travel.

    Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
    So the solution is that taxation will reduce congestion via giving people incentive to drive at non-peak hours - that's not an idea wholly without merit, but is anyone on Deerfoot at 8AM and 5PM there voluntarily? Congestion in Calgary only really happens during rush hour and unless you think companies are going to start randomizing working hours to avoid a congestion tax, it's foolish to think such an idea would solve anything.
    Hence public transit has to work well enough for an alternate means of travel if drivers are priced out of driving.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
    I have gone above and beyond what I should rightfully have to do to protect my good name

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Elbonia
    My Ride
    Jeep of Theseus
    Posts
    6,827
    Rep Power
    48

    Default

    Originally posted by supe


    I actually think it will work. I think there is a good percentage of cars on the road that are there for businesses, those costs will affect business decisions. There is a good chunk of people who will think twice about taking the rush hour commute and choose to go earlier and leave later. Then there will be the students and those that maybe can't afford the price tag and decide to take alternative means of transport. Carpooling will also now have a financial incentive. All these things add up and might make a winning formula. I think it would be great as a trial on the major roads, Deerfoot, crowchild, glenmore etc.
    So you are saying just to avoid a tax, you would voluntarily go to work an hour early (unpaid!) and leave and hour late (unpaid!)?



    Originally posted by rage2

    Hence public transit has to work well enough for an alternate means of travel if drivers are priced out of driving.

    I would argue that in a city as both sprawl-happy and core-centric as Calgary, that's a pipe dream. Personally, I'd lean towards an added HOV lane for Deerfoot as a better alternative here. Incredible parking prices didn't fix our downtown congestion problem, why do you think yet another monetary incentive would?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Calgary
    My Ride
    Tesla Model 3 AWD
    Posts
    443
    Rep Power
    18

    Default

    A few things, it would be nice if it worked on a credit based system where everyone gets a certain number of free credits every month to start with, that way it doesn't completely price out everyone.

    Second, I don't know if I would leave early to avoid the tax but I might, and if enough people are on the fence it could make a big difference.

    I finally found the TED video that also backs this solution up:

    http://www.ted.com/talks/jonas_elias...e_traffic_jams

    Major points are, a very small decrease in traffic volume makes a HUGE difference in congestion. Also a very interesting statistic is the public is always against the idea of toll roads but after implementation the public actually supports it. Again its a free service that is now something people have to pay for but people are for it.... because it works!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Elbonia
    My Ride
    Jeep of Theseus
    Posts
    6,827
    Rep Power
    48

    Default

    Originally posted by supe

    Second, I don't know if I would leave early to avoid the tax but I might, and if enough people are on the fence it could make a big difference.
    So that would be a "no", then - your assumption is that the nebulous "other people" will seek to avoid the tax and thus provide you with clearer roadways while doing nothing yourself.

    You also seem to be confusing the concept of toll roads and congestion taxes.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Calgary AB
    My Ride
    W204
    Posts
    2,707
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
    I would argue that in a city as both sprawl-happy and core-centric as Calgary, that's a pipe dream. Personally, I'd lean towards an added HOV lane for Deerfoot as a better alternative here. Incredible parking prices didn't fix our downtown congestion problem, why do you think yet another monetary incentive would?
    Dude you high or something? HOV lanes *do not work*.

    http://paleale.eecs.berkeley.edu/~va...ps.dir/HOV.pdf

    You're reducing the capacity of a roadway and making commute times longer by forcing people onto the other sections of the roadway. And why a TOLL WOULD work because ANYONE can optionally pay the toll, but NOT EVERYONE can use the HOV lane.

    Toll seems to be working in London:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_...raffic_changes
    You have a couple of photos that are great... you must be very good at photoshop!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Elbonia
    My Ride
    Jeep of Theseus
    Posts
    6,827
    Rep Power
    48

    Default

    Originally posted by clem24


    Dude you high or something? HOV lanes *do not work*.

    http://paleale.eecs.berkeley.edu/~va...ps.dir/HOV.pdf

    You're reducing the capacity of a roadway and making commute times longer by forcing people onto the other sections of the roadway. And why a TOLL WOULD work because ANYONE can optionally pay the toll, but NOT EVERYONE can use the HOV lane.

    Toll seems to be working in London:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_...raffic_changes
    Drawing direct correlation between the SF Bay area, London Metro, and Calgary? If I'm high, you're on another planet. I'd be much happier with just expanding roadway capacity instead of using an HOV method, but if people want to make this "expand transit usefulness" thing happen, they've got to put the buses somewhere. Would you rather just have a fleet of CT bendy buses on Deerfoot in the same passenger lanes as everyone else? I'd love a subway system instead, but that doesn't seem to be an option the City wants to pursue - the sheer area of Calgary makes it a difficult problem to solve - unlike, say, London, where the effective transit system was already in place.

    To put it simply, congestion charges work in areas where an effective and useful transit system is already in place - you cannot put the cart before the horse. Calgary's transit system is in no way capable of supporting this, and making it so would require an incredible influx of money.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    My Ride
    Bicycle
    Posts
    9,271
    Rep Power
    49

    Default

    Toll road make sense at long as money from tolls go directly into public transit and not some for profit organization.

    This makes so much sense.

    This means raising the price of driving on a road when demand is high. During rush hour, drivers would have to pay a fee to use the most congested roads.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    calgary, alberta, canada
    My Ride
    Faux X 4 Mall Crawler
    Posts
    5,678
    Rep Power
    42

    Default

    Just cap calgary's population and let congestion solve itself as boomers die out
    sig deleted by moderator, because they are useless

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Calgary
    My Ride
    Tesla Model 3 AWD
    Posts
    443
    Rep Power
    18

    Default

    Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


    So that would be a "no", then - your assumption is that the nebulous "other people" will seek to avoid the tax and thus provide you with clearer roadways while doing nothing yourself.

    You also seem to be confusing the concept of toll roads and congestion taxes.
    NO, that would be a maybe. Some days I might some days I might not. Expand my thinking process to the general public and congestion goes down. Life is not that hard.

    I see toll roads and congestion pricing as the same thing, its how I would implement the charges. Not a toll booth but with automated cameras.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    2,653
    Rep Power
    24

    Default

    .
    Last edited by 01RedDX; 09-24-2020 at 02:00 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    calgary
    My Ride
    CLK 55 / 2g Eclipse / EP3
    Posts
    4,422
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    Short term, there will be pain....however in the long term (30-50 years) it will change the makeup of the city entirely. We will likely have multiple "cores" in the city that are surrounded by commercial and residential areas.

    Vancouver will likely implement this entire (toll) concept first, they have followed this model of planning for decades (decentralization).

    Perhaps aerial trams, or some other connection, would likely link the cores together.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Calgary
    My Ride
    Grimace
    Posts
    6,815
    Rep Power
    26

    Default

    Since we have no room to construct HOV lanes, it would make things much worse by taking a lane away and not having room for the infrastructure required for the lanes. HOV lanes in the US are much different than just paint on the road.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Elbonia
    My Ride
    Jeep of Theseus
    Posts
    6,827
    Rep Power
    48

    Default

    Originally posted by schocker
    Since we have no room to construct HOV lanes, it would make things much worse by taking a lane away and not having room for the infrastructure required for the lanes. HOV lanes in the US are much different than just paint on the road.
    Of course, hence why I said added HOV. To run a time-restricted HOV using the existing roadway would be folly.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Calgary AB
    My Ride
    W204
    Posts
    2,707
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


    Of course, hence why I said added HOV. To run a time-restricted HOV using the existing roadway would be folly.
    Doesn't that make your argument even worse? Now we're SPENDING MORE money to create ineffective extra lanes? When really we could just spend the money, create a toll lanes... Or even free lanes for everyone.
    You have a couple of photos that are great... you must be very good at photoshop!

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Elbonia
    My Ride
    Jeep of Theseus
    Posts
    6,827
    Rep Power
    48

    Default

    Originally posted by clem24


    Doesn't that make your argument even worse? Now we're SPENDING MORE money to create ineffective extra lanes? When really we could just spend the money, create a toll lanes... Or even free lanes for everyone.
    Feel free to go back and read where I explained why I mentioned the HOV lane and how it relates to transit use in Calgary.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Vettel's #1
    My Ride
    Vettel's #1
    Posts
    1,170
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    I wonder how much eliminating large truck use during rush hours would help. I've recently noticed how much these things can completely screw up traffic flow during my commute.
    Vettel's #1

Page 1 of 4 1 2 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Jaywalkers? Solution add more crosswalks on busy roads!

    By mazdavirgin in forum Society / Law / Current Events / Politics
    Replies: 58
    Latest Threads: 09-01-2016, 05:02 PM
  2. Bigger title vs Bigger salary

    By prodigydud in forum Careers
    Replies: 31
    Latest Threads: 02-28-2014, 06:26 PM
  3. Replies: 14
    Latest Threads: 05-09-2013, 07:01 PM
  4. not paying utility bills - looking for solution

    By ExtraSlow in forum Real Estate / Finance
    Replies: 22
    Latest Threads: 05-04-2010, 07:04 AM
  5. Ald. McIver Proposes Solution to Snow Clearing for Calgary Roads

    By Markham in forum Society / Law / Current Events / Politics
    Replies: 47
    Latest Threads: 01-11-2010, 09:21 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •