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  1. #61
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    Originally posted by Mibz
    You're confusing AWD with "The package that includes AWD". AWD cannot create an increase in mileage or power on its own, provided the 2WD system can handle all the power it gets without breaking. In fact, efficiency would be improved by removing that second motor while keeping the rest of the extras from the D package.

    As for AWD handling, well whether that's a good thing or not will all depend on how it works.
    I believe that in the dual motor setup the front motor is geared higher offering greater efficiency at higher speeds. At those speeds the front does more of the work. At lower speeds the rear motor,which is geared lower, does more of the work. Thus offering better efficiencies than a single motor setup could provide.

    Plus I think having a front motor allows for more efficient regen braking which helps with increasing the range but this would probably be true in a simple single fwd setup as well.

    I haven't been on Beyond for a while. I am surprised at the hate for Elon and the Tesla model S. I thought most of you would like the car. Especially the P85D! 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, seats 5+2, gobs of instant power, extremely high safety rating. There is nothing out there like it. It's an impressive car no matter how you look at it.

    It's not perfect by any means. It's expensive. You can't track the thing because the battery will overheat. It's also had its share of reliability problems (see edmunds long term review) but it's no lemon either. All the reviews I've read on the car have been really positive. I don't understand the hate.
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    Originally posted by B18C


    I believe that in the dual motor setup the front motor is geared higher offering greater efficiency at higher speeds. At those speeds the front does more of the work. At lower speeds the rear motor,which is geared lower, does more of the work. Thus offering better efficiencies than a single motor setup could provide.

    Plus I think having a front motor allows for more efficient regen braking which helps with increasing the range but this would probably be true in a simple single fwd setup as well.

    I haven't been on Beyond for a while. I am surprised at the hate for Elon and the Tesla model S. I thought most of you would like the car. Especially the P85D! 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, seats 5+2, gobs of instant power, extremely high safety rating. There is nothing out there like it. It's an impressive car no matter how you look at it.

    It's not perfect by any means. It's expensive. You can't track the thing because the battery will overheat. It's also had its share of reliability problems (see edmunds long term review) but it's no lemon either. All the reviews I've read on the car have been really positive. I don't understand the hate.
    We class cars based on number of exhaust pipes. This? Not rated so high.

    It's also just not innovative at all. Just expensive.

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    Originally posted by B18C

    I haven't been on Beyond for a while. I am surprised at the hate for Elon and the Tesla model S. I thought most of you would like the car. Especially the P85D! 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, seats 5+2, gobs of instant power, extremely high safety rating. There is nothing out there like it. It's an impressive car no matter how you look at it.

    It's not perfect by any means. It's expensive. You can't track the thing because the battery will overheat. It's also had its share of reliability problems (see edmunds long term review) but it's no lemon either. All the reviews I've read on the car have been really positive. I don't understand the hate.
    I don't remember any posts that were hating on the Tesla at all - just many pointing out (quite rightly) that many of the touted "innovative" features have already been done by other manufacturers years ago. That's not saying it's a bad car, and most of the more negative posts had more to do with supe masturbating himself raw over the thing than any actual dislike of the automobile.

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    Originally posted by B18C
    I believe that in the dual motor setup the front motor is geared higher offering greater efficiency at higher speeds. At those speeds the front does more of the work. At lower speeds the rear motor,which is geared lower, does more of the work. Thus offering better efficiencies than a single motor setup could provide.

    Plus I think having a front motor allows for more efficient regen braking which helps with increasing the range but this would probably be true in a simple single fwd setup as well.

    I haven't been on Beyond for a while. I am surprised at the hate for Elon and the Tesla model S. I thought most of you would like the car. Especially the P85D! 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, seats 5+2, gobs of instant power, extremely high safety rating. There is nothing out there like it. It's an impressive car no matter how you look at it.

    It's not perfect by any means. It's expensive. You can't track the thing because the battery will overheat. It's also had its share of reliability problems (see edmunds long term review) but it's no lemon either. All the reviews I've read on the car have been really positive. I don't understand the hate.
    That's good info, thanks.

    Nobody here is hating on Elon or the Tesla, there are just a lot of people who can't seem to differentiate between "not riding the Tesla hype train" and "hating Tesla". Being realistic about the car, the company and its owner are not hating, we're simply trying to bring this thread back down to Earth after some overly enthusiastic posters have regurgitated marketing hype instead of thinking for themselves.

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    Originally posted by Mibz
    That's good info, thanks.

    Nobody here is hating on Elon or the Tesla, there are just a lot of people who can't seem to differentiate between "not riding the Tesla hype train" and "hating Tesla". Being realistic about the car, the company and its owner are not hating, we're simply trying to bring this thread back down to Earth after some overly enthusiastic posters have regurgitated marketing hype instead of thinking for themselves.
    Fair enough. Being a car enthusiast forum, I guess I was just expecting a little more love here for the model S. Innovative or not, it sure is a compelling car.
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    Why should I care who innovated what? as a consumer I just want the best all around product on the market, I don't care if the Japanese innovated with sensors for system X, the Germans innovated on traction control, the Swedes innovated on safety systems etc. Its the end result "package" that I'm interested in, and the P85D delivers.

    Musk WANTS the industry to catch on and for EV cars to push out ICE. Hence opening up Tesla's patents.
    I think he's already done his job in the automotive industry, and Model X will seal the deal. At the moment he is more interested in humanity's future, i.e. colonizing mars, rather than building cars that are better than the top 1% (BMW M, AMG, Audi RS). Oh yeah he does that job pretty well already, too.

    The P85D is the best all around car you can buy right now.

    Last edited by DubSport; 11-14-2014 at 10:14 PM.

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    Originally posted by DubSport
    At the moment he is more interested in humanity's future,

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    Originally posted by DubSport
    The P85D is the best all around car you can buy right now.

    Best EV around, for sure. Best all around car? Maybe in California. Here in Calgary, you have AWD for winter, but the battery performance drops significantly unless you're in a heated garage.

    Here's consumer reports winter test. By winter, they're testing in mild winter, 7C in the day, -1C at night.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...-car/index.htm

    The test showed that there was a loss of 40% range in that environment. In Calgary, where it's currently -15C, it'll be much worse. The battery is only rated to -10C, so it's spending a lot energy keeping the system warm.

    Then there's long distance driving. It takes a Tesla 2 days to get to Vancouver.

    EV's have a long ways to go before it truly becomes a better all around car than any gasoline powered car.

    While I believe EV's are the future and Tesla is leading the way today, it still needs to fix the storage problem, which can only be overcome by breaking past the limits of chemical storage.
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    Originally posted by DubSport

    Musk WANTS the industry to catch on and for EV cars to push out ICE. Hence opening up Tesla's patents.
    More correctly, opening the patents was a move to spur EV development so he'll have more customers for the massive battery factory he's building. Musk is a savvy entrepreneur with a marketing slant, not an altruist.

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    Last edited by 01RedDX; 10-02-2020 at 11:15 PM.

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    Originally posted by rage2

    Best EV around, for sure. Best all around car? Maybe in California. Here in Calgary, you have AWD for winter, but the battery performance drops significantly unless you're in a heated garage.

    Here's consumer reports winter test. By winter, they're testing in mild winter, 7C in the day, -1C at night.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...-car/index.htm

    The test showed that there was a loss of 40% range in that environment. In Calgary, where it's currently -15C, it'll be much worse. The battery is only rated to -10C, so it's spending a lot energy keeping the system warm.

    Then there's long distance driving. It takes a Tesla 2 days to get to Vancouver.

    EV's have a long ways to go before it truly becomes a better all around car than any gasoline powered car.

    While I believe EV's are the future and Tesla is leading the way today, it still needs to fix the storage problem, which can only be overcome by breaking past the limits of chemical storage.
    OK Range is the only real counter-argument that I see here.
    Safety, performance, and tech in the P85D is already proven to be fantastic, putting it somewhere near the top of the charts along with the other great cars currently on the market (E63, M5, RS7, Porsches, etc.).

    Back to range - in my case, 100% of my driving is within city limits. I do go from heated garage to heated garage. Plus, I'm pretty sure you (or any of us for that matter) wouldn't be able to hit your ICE vehicles touted MPG rating in Calgary either, based on both our driving styles and our less than ideal roads/environment. So it's not shocking news that Tesla doesn't always achieve its touted range either, barring ideal conditions/driving.

    There are two supercharger stations planned to be built between Calgary and Vancouver. So when they are done, you could do the trip for free, in the same time as your ICE.

    I still stand by my statement, but holding out for Model X. Think SUV with sub 4-second 0-60.

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    Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


    More correctly, opening the patents was a move to spur EV development so he'll have more customers for the massive battery factory he's building.
    That very well may be part of it, and Musk realizes he will need lots of cash to achieve his lofty space exploration goals.

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    Originally posted by DubSport
    OK Range is the only real counter-argument that I see here.
    Safety, performance, and tech in the P85D is already proven to be fantastic, putting it somewhere near the top of the charts along with the other great cars currently on the market (E63, M5, RS7, Porsches, etc.).

    Back to range - in my case, 100% of my driving is within city limits. I do go from heated garage to heated garage. Plus, I'm pretty sure you (or any of us for that matter) wouldn't be able to hit your ICE vehicles touted MPG rating in Calgary either, based on both our driving styles and our less than ideal roads/environment. So it's not shocking news that Tesla doesn't always achieve its touted range either, barring ideal conditions/driving.

    There are two supercharger stations planned to be built between Calgary and Vancouver. So when they are done, you could do the trip for free, in the same time as your ICE.

    I still stand by my statement, but holding out for Model X. Think SUV with sub 4-second 0-60.
    Like I said, almost there, great car for some people in the right conditions, but definitely not the best all around car yet. It just doesn't work for many people, but works well for some.

    While the Tesla has great performance, it kills range if you actually USE the performance. So sure, even if you have a supercharger station between here and Vancouver, you have to drive conservatively to make the trip work.

    ICE cars have the same problem with range, but I can get gas anywhere and it takes me 10 mins. In a Tesla, you'd have to find a supercharger station and wait an hour. No supercharger station? A 240V station can get you going in 10 hours. Only a wall plug in hick town BC? Prepare to sit tight for 50+ hours.

    I've said it many times before, EV's need to be able to recharge as fast as filling up a tank of gas before it's a serious competitor to gas powered cars. Otherwise, owners will have to drive with some compromises.

    Tesla has the best EV's out there, but it sure doesn't have the best all around car.
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    Any car is the right car in the right conditions.

    What if your requirements are only that you want the safest car on the road, check.

    What if your requirements are you want the quickest 5 or 7 seater on the road, check.

    What if you just never want to visit a gas station ever again, especially on cold winter days. Despite the loss in range you will easily get a days worth of driving.

    The word best is subjective, the model s is best in many ways that conventional ICE cars are not capable of. Keep in mind this car got the BEST rating of any vehicle on the road from consumer reports.

    Yes there are shortfalls which to me are long distance driving and the fact that you need a garage. The first issue is somewhat countered by the fact that the supercharger network is free.

    I agree that the technology that powers the model S can get better and it will. Tesla has admitted that it is expecting and ready for battery breakthroughs. But that is the best part about it, is that you're improving upon a platform that is already very good in lots ways, VS ICE cars that only get marginally incrementally better every year.

    And in case anyone is still confused by the meaning of innovation:

    http://www.technologyreview.com/news...ar-innovation/
    http://www.businessinsider.com/fabul...k-2013-12?op=1

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    I believe Tesla is doing good things.

    End of the day, if car can't be fully charged in 5-10mins, it's a compromise that many won't deal with and prevent it from going mainstream.

    If all the battery tech in the labs can be out in public in a decade's time, Tesla will be in the best position to capitalize that.

    Until then, they will continue to be a niche player and will continue to discover why it's tough to be a new entrant as a car maker.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...lems/index.htm

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...anty/index.htm

    http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/22/7...igned-into-law

    http://www.newsinenglish.no/2014/01/...electric-cars/



    And if I live in San Diego or LA, I would so rock a Tesla S.
    Last edited by Xtrema; 11-17-2014 at 05:51 PM.

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    The Model S is not for everyone but I think the range problem is a bit overblown. This is where I see the brilliance of Tesla. While something like the Leaf is trying to bring EV's to the masses. Tesla knows we aren't there yet. They go after the luxury market with a $100k+ car. Then they go and make a great car that people actually want to buy. This way they can build the infrastructure needed to make EV's a reality for the masses while the world improves on EV and battery technology to make it make it more affordable.

    I really feel that range is a non-factor for the Model S. If you can afford a $100k+ car (the P85D will cost you $140k+ when reasonably optioned), it is highly unlikely that it is your only car. If you really want to drive to Vancouver, take your ICE - at least for now, until the Supercharger network builds out enough.

    For everyday use, get a dryer plug in your garage and plug it in every night and you will wake up to the equivalent to a full take of gas every day. There is something to be said to never have to go get gas in the middle of winter.

    Now I've never liked the argument of gas savings. I've done the calculation for myself and comparing the P85D to an E63, it would take me about 14 years of driving to make up the gas savings. Plus when you are paying that much for a car, arguing the bit of money you save on gas seems silly.

    A sedan that goes 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and can seat 7 plus hold a load of groceries? That is something worth talking about!
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    Originally posted by B18C
    The Model S is not for everyone but I think the range problem is a bit overblown. This is where I see the brilliance of Tesla. While something like the Leaf is trying to bring EV's to the masses. Tesla knows we aren't there yet. They go after the luxury market with a $100k+ car. Then they go and make a great car that people actually want to buy. This way they can build the infrastructure needed to make EV's a reality for the masses while the world improves on EV and battery technology to make it make it more affordable.

    I really feel that range is a non-factor for the Model S. If you can afford a $100k+ car (the P85D will cost you $140k+ when reasonably optioned), it is highly unlikely that it is your only car. If you really want to drive to Vancouver, take your ICE - at least for now, until the Supercharger network builds out enough.

    For everyday use, get a dryer plug in your garage and plug it in every night and you will wake up to the equivalent to a full take of gas every day. There is something to be said to never have to go get gas in the middle of winter.

    Now I've never liked the argument of gas savings. I've done the calculation for myself and comparing the P85D to an E63, it would take me about 14 years of driving to make up the gas savings. Plus when you are paying that much for a car, arguing the bit of money you save on gas seems silly.

    A sedan that goes 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and can seat 7 plus hold a load of groceries? That is something worth talking about!
    I recently had a chance to drive the new P85 and ride along in the P85D. Both cars are insanely fun to drive. The handling is numb even in sport mode and with the air suspension dialed in, but the power is so intoxicating. Usually you have to wait for power or downshift in anticipation. In the Teslas you just floor it and you get forced back into your seat. It is only one gear so it doesn't need to downshift. I am a total believer in the car when it is working. It is the coolest vehicle I have ever driven, but as I was leaving I saw 2 Model S' come in for service on a flat bed...It is probably the coolest car you can buy for $150K, but I don't know that the technology is ready just yet. Also the rear sears are really cheap. The aren't uncomfortable but they are worse than even what you would get in a Honda Accord.

    For those interested in the Model X I believe they don't have a delivery date on them anymore. I was hearing late Q1 or Q2 2016.

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    Originally posted by rage2

    Only a wall plug in hick town BC? Prepare to sit tight for 50+ hours.

    I've said it many times before, EV's need to be able to recharge as fast as filling up a tank of gas before it's a serious competitor to gas powered cars. Otherwise, owners will have to drive with some compromises.

    One of the biggest problem that I see is this continuing concept of "i can plug it in anywhere"

    Who is going to pay for you to plug your electric car in outside their business/house?

    Places are going to start ripping block heater plug ins out to combat this.

    The battery packs are 85 kWHr on the top line which at 7.79 c/kwr is just under 7 dollars of electricity assuming that charger works at 100% efficiency. People and businesses are not in the habit of giving things away for free and no one is set up to bill you based on usage aside from the power company. Basically unless you live in san Francisco you aren't charging your Tesla ANYWHERE but home or supercharger stations.

    And these packs are going to keep getting bigger and electricity is certainly not getting cheaper anywhere on the horizon.

    Even the top range Tesla has 427 max theoretical range. I bet you couldn't even make it to banff and back in the winter especially if you want to use your 400 bhp equivalent car to go more than 110 km/hr.


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    We went to Lake Louise for the weekend in February and stayed at the hotel. Another guest brought a black Tesla and left it with the valet. I doubt the Valet plugged it in.

    I assume he was from Calgary.

    This is what my car looked like in the morning, so it was winter and cold.

    click for larger version
    » Click image for larger version

    I don't trust Valets, so I always self park.

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    Originally posted by benyl
    We went to Lake Louise for the weekend in February and stayed at the hotel. Another guest brought a black Tesla and left it with the valet. I doubt the Valet plugged it in.

    I assume he was from Calgary.

    This is what my car looked like in the morning, so it was winter and cold.

    click for larger version
    » Click image for larger version

    I don't trust Valets, so I always self park.
    Well based on what Rage was saying even at 40% decreased ( in much warmer weather) that's just over 250 km total range. With Louise 182 km each way... Maybe he came from Canmore or was extremely lucky, to be fair you never did see if he made it home

    As for Valets who does trust them. I only ever do it if they will leave the car at the door.

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