12th Ave Cycle Track Lane Insanity

[rob the knob]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs
As much as I'm not a fan of these lanes; I was sitting on a patio on 12th from 8:30-10 pm last night and saw more use than I would have expected considering they aren't technically open. Didn't count each and every user but I'd say there was a rider/skateboarder/rollerblader every 5 minutes or so

i never ever really understand rollerblading.

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by Type_S1


and how many cars? Enough to justify giving the one person every 5 minutes 1/3 of the infrastructure?

Wasn't making a statement about whether the lanes were worth the tradeoffs; was more just surprised by the use on a standalone basis that I saw last night

What's stranger is that I walk past the lane during commuting hours in the morning and don't see as much use as of yet. Makes me wonder if it'll see more use by recreational users as opposed to commuters.

[speedog]

A question for the proponents of this cycling infrastructure - are there any publicly available statistics with respect to E-W and N-S cyclist volumes similar to the vehicle volume maps one can find on-line for the city of Calgary?

One can talk of the differences certain infrastructure changes can make but hard facts people can look at are better than any talk.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by kenny

What the City of Calgary needs to do more of is shrink the lane widths down to absolute minimums to make room for either an extra lane for buses only, or bicycles. Of course they won't do that though as that will slow down traffic and reduce revenue. They even mentioned that on their revised plan for cycle lanes down Macleod Trail.

They actually have narrower lanes on a lot of downtown lanes than provincial regulations allow already. It is these regulations that prevented it from being done for the 1st St SE cycle track.

Slowing down traffic around large pedestrian centres is a general goal (it was essentially the reason Bowness got a bike lane. Not for cyclists but more for traffic calming to benefit pedestrians in the neighborhood). With all the residential and hotels being built in that corridor of McLeod Trail, not to mention the pedestrian connectivity between the rest of the Beltline and Stampede Grounds, safety around these streets has become a much bigger issue so the issue of traffic calming comes up a lot.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by dezmarez
Can some explain why they are adding the lanes on 5th Street SW running North/South when there are already bike lanes on 7th Street SW running North/South.

Originally posted by Impreza


Please something explain this. It creates an absolute gongshow here. There is already a bike lane on 7th, why the need for another on 5th??

7th St connects to the Peace Bridge and Bow River Pathway (and therefore the population on the north side of the river) but does not connect into the Beltline. So it is limited on what it can adequately serve.

5th St connects the Beltline into downtown by creating a separated cycle track underneath the rail tracks, probably the biggest safety concern of any casual cyclist. This serves a large amount of people, but couldn't connect to the infrastructure that serves the people coming from the north side of the river.

8th Ave connects the two downtown, connecting the whole system to maximize N-S travel.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


They will come.........To a point. This is my issue. The big argument is that if you continue to expand vehicular infrastructure that the number of motorists will increase, and won't stop increasing.

McLeod Trail peaked sometime in the 90s.

I agree with this. I'm not sure it applies to bike users though. It will increase of course but it will also plateau fairly early on I think.

Show the modelling to prove this. Note that the last guy to do this showed that Calgarians cycle more than Vancouverites already.

The desire of the average DT commuter to use a bike is low. I've been asking a number of people who currently commute to the DT core via vehicle, if you make driving so frustrating that these people choose to use an alternate form of transportation they will choose transit, not a bicycle. And that's with summer weather upon us, that number will plummet come colder weather.

Then let them choose transit. Eases traffic congestion by taking a car off the road, lessens demand on parking, what's the problem here?

Does anyone have access to the modelling that suggests this "if you build it they will come argument"? For the city of Calgary, not Copenhagen, Amsterdam or somewhere in Germany.

How do you think models are created?

'Eliminate all data that can be used to form a hypothesis and then show how you can come up with this specific hypothesis'.

Civic and federal census data shows the number of respondents who say they cycle to work. Surveys show people who uses cycling for other purposes (school, recreation, daily-use, etc.) and desires to cycle more and what factors limit their cycling use.

They then gather this data, come up with lists of desired outcomes, implement plans to achieve those outcomes, and look at data from other cities who have tried to achieve similar outcomes with similar plans.

Calgary's cycling mode share increase coinciding with other pro-cycling initiatives is also a good model. Pretty simple stuff.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by XylathaneGTR

I'll jump into the fray, because why the heck not.

One thing I noticed about Berlin was that most of Mitte and a lot of surrounding areas had "super wide" sidewalks that were actually divided tracks. Pedestrians on the curb side, and cyclists on the building side. I recall most of the time the sidewalk surface was also a different material depending on which side you were on (e.g. cobles vs. asphalt or concrete slabs for the cycle-side) so it was pretty straight forward to know which side you were supposed to be on.

What Berlin found out is that neither cyclists nor pedestrians are crazy about a system that puts them in constant conflict (pedestrians needing to cross a cycle path to get on a bus, lack of maneuverability for cyclists etc.

It is why they have been going from this:


» Click image for larger version

to this:


» Click image for larger version

And this:


» Click image for larger version


As more acceptable options than the ones you describe.

On my daily walk to/from work through the DTCore...I notice that a lot of our blocks have a standard sidewalk lane that's more than wide enough for four people to walk abreast, and to the curbside of this lane, the pathway is broken up by a single tree with a metal grate every few dozen feet; wasted space when you're considering moving traffic through the sidewalk.

You're also trying to create a safe space for pedestrians, and tree lined roads have lower speeds for vehicles than ones that don't (among some of the reasons they plant them, even if they struggle). But throwing in a bunch of bus infrastructure doesn't actually move pedestrians through it either. It just creates an island for them to stand on and more exposed to traffic.

On a related note, there's currently a push for sidewalk widths to allow for two rows of trees.

Rather than creating serious congestion problems from removing a lane of motor vehicle traffic, why can't we rip out the trees and grating and replace them with a wider divided sidewalk similar to Berlin's Mitte district, allowing us to utilize otherwise wasted space? Pedestrians on the curb side (for ease of loading passengers for busses, taxis, etc.) and bicycles on the inside. Sure this won't work for every single roadway in the core, but along my west-to-east commute through North DT I see a lot of opportunities where something like this may be implemented and prevent the absolute mess we have on our roads today (e.g. third ave backed up for two blocks waiting to turn left on 5th street, contributed to in-part by the loss of a lane from the cycle track).

Taking away pedestrian space is never a good answer, because that is what you'd be doing. The closure of a lane for a building being constructed is an easily avoidable problem but people blame the bike lane almost exclusively for 5th St turning problems.

Eagerly awaiting your CoC-branded counterpoint, Kerte.

I guess the official word of the COC is: suck it up, bike lanes are coming, stop relying on inefficient modes of transportation.

[Thomas Gabriel]

I walk past 12th ave every morning. Since they added these lanes traffic has gotten much, much worse. Anyone driving that route everyday should be livid. A rabid minority group just removed hours of their life annually.

But the 8th ave lanes are worse. This is where people parked when they wanted to go downtown for dinner, globe theater etc. It's also where many Car2Go's parked. Even my coworkers that bike are like fuck...that's going to suck in the winter. Hopefully people remember this next election.

[Type_S1]

I feel kertejud has a beard, wears skinny jeans, may have a man bun, lived with his parents the majority of his adult life, only likes to eat at trendy places downtown, hates genetically modified food, voted for Nenshi, voted for the NDP and opposed the majority of the oil and gas industry.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Type_S1
I feel kertejud has a beard, wears skinny jeans, may have a man bun, lived with his parents the majority of his adult life, only likes to eat at trendy places downtown, hates genetically modified food, voted for Nenshi, voted for the NDP and opposed the majority of the oil and gas industry.

I feel you have a #2 haircut, wear Ed Hardy t-shirts, have a Confederate flag sticker on the back of your pickup with truck balls, that you drive from your McMansion to and from the job you hate but pays for your overweight wife you resent and 2.3 kids you can't stand and try to escape by going to a chain bar and drink Bud Light...

Am I doing this right?

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by kertejud2


I feel you have a #2 haircut, wear Ed Hardy t-shirts, have a Confederate flag sticker on the back of your pickup with truck balls, that you drive from your McMansion to and from the job you hate but pays for your overweight wife you resent and 2.3 kids you can't stand and try to escape by going to a chain bar and drink Bud Light...

Am I doing this right?

Not really...because I think most of what I said was accurate

You were close on a couple though...mcmansion and lifted SUV (this will count for the truck guess).

[rage2]

Originally posted by schurchill39
My favorite is that now with the implementation of all of these new bike lanes, over half of the cyclists I see downtown still drive on the vehicle lanes. I was behind some jackass yesterday after work riding his bike in the right lane when he had a perfectly good bike lane right beside him to use. The only time he used the bike lane was to pull in front of it to cross the street.

The same goes for couriers. Walking between meetings downtown on roads with bike lanes I only see about half of them use them.

Bike lanes have a speed limit of 20km/h. The serious riders are going to continue to use the roads which has a 50km/h limit.

[kertejud2]

Cycle tracks are like gay marriage, according to one City of Calgary councillor...

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by kertejud2
Cycle tracks are like gay marriage, according to one City of Calgary councillor...

Well the first thing is a good thing and the second thing is an abomination. So...

But yeah let's not stop you from your hilarious zealotry when it comes to this cluster fuck. You don't even live in the ward yet you think it's ok to fuck us over downtown when it comes to parking and driving around in the neighborhoods where we live?

There just isn't enough of this emoticon to go around

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


Well the first thing is a good thing and the second thing is an abomination. So...

But yeah let's not stop you from your hilarious zealotry when it comes to this cluster fuck. You don't even live in the ward yet you think it's ok to fuck us over downtown when it comes to parking and driving around in the neighborhoods where we live?

There just isn't enough of this emoticon to go around

You clearly have no idea what the people in your Ward want. They're the ones pushing for this and voted for a councillor who was pushing for this (over a rather popular incumbent to boot). What is holding it back is the people in other words who commute through, not the representatives of the ward itself. You're in the minority in your Ward and too ignorant to realize it.

The inner city communities (wards 7,8,9) all want more transportation options, and want those options to be safer and better.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by kertejud2


You clearly have no idea what the people in your Ward want. They're the ones pushing for this and voted for a councillor who was pushing for this (over a rather popular incumbent to boot). What is holding it back is the people in other words who commute through, not the representatives of the ward itself. You're in the minority in your Ward and too ignorant to realize it.

The inner city communities (wards 7,8,9) all want more transportation options, and want those options to be safer and better.

Are you saying John Mar wasn't in favour of cycle tracks?

[rage2]

Originally posted by kertejud2
You clearly have no idea what the people in your Ward want. They're the ones pushing for this and voted for a councillor who was pushing for this (over a rather popular incumbent to boot). What is holding it back is the people in other words who commute through, not the representatives of the ward itself. You're in the minority in your Ward and too ignorant to realize it.

The inner city communities (wards 7,8,9) all want more transportation options, and want those options to be safer and better.

Originally posted by Maxt
Are you saying John Mar wasn't in favour of cycle tracks?

Haha nice. I still blame 7th street on him, although looking back now, 7th street is amazing compared to what happened this month to downtown.

kertejud2 should really attend the public sessions and talk to the people there. I think he's a little out of touch with what the ward residents really want. Kind of funny how he calls us suburbanites out because we have no say what inner city wants, and now calls out inner city residents because they are apparently the minority. Must be just reading all those one sided surveys that are given out there.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Maxt


Are you saying John Mar wasn't in favour of cycle tracks?

I'm saying he wasn't in favour with the same fervor as Woolley.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by rage2


Must be just reading all those one sided surveys that are given out there.

Or writing them.

Originally posted by kertejud2


I'm saying he wasn't in favour with the same fervor as Woolley.

Degrees of pregnancy? Do you have a metric for fervor?

[rage2]

Originally posted by kertejud2
I'm saying he wasn't in favour with the same fervor as Woolley.

And this is where you lose the remaining credibility you had left.

Woolley won because john mar was lazy. Woolley relied on knocking on doors. Mar relied on robocalls. Woolleys platform focused on fixing traffic problems including more car pool lanes lol.