Porsche Takes Pole for 24 Hours of Le Mans, Nissan not so much

[dubhead]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119441

The three Nissan LMP1s will start from the back of the Le Mans 24 Hour prototype field after failing to meet the 110 per cent qualifying minimum.

Two of the GT-LM NISMOs qualified ahead of the best LMP2 contender and the third right behind it, but they will line up on the grid in 30th, 31st and 32nd positions.

Look likes "front wheel drive" and "sports car" will continue to be mutually exclusive terms

[xnvy]

Wait, so the Nissan's are FWD? I thought they were FR, not FF. That's a pretty big risk by Nissan, props to them for taking it, doesn't look like it will pay off though.

[ekguy]

As far as I know I believe they are FWD...Quite the risk but hey...who knows right?

[rage2]

It's awd but mostly fwd. interesting concept, it'll take a while to iron out the kinks.

[danno]

Pretty sure this is the car Jay Leno goes over on a recent episode of his

[NoPulp]

I'm just excited for 2016...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVa4mlFZEmM

[Alpine Autowerks]

Originally posted by rage2
It's awd but mostly fwd. interesting concept, it'll take a while to iron out the kinks.

Looks like too many kinks = team was fired by e-mail.

http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/n...from-2016-wec/

[rage2]

I was going to post this a couple of days ago, but couldn't find the thread. I knew I wasn't on crack and posted in it haha.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...s-over-e-mail/

Really good read on the life of the project.

[Zhao Kan]

lol even an amateur racer like myself could tell you that fwd is a great recipe to make you go slower than everyone else. I'm not surprised they blew this project up.

RWD is a huge advantage over FWD. AWD can suck it too, as you're just adding weight which handicaps you everywhere, for a slight advantage coming out of a corner (in theory). I never liked AWD either for racing.

[zieg]

Originally posted by Zhao Kan
I never liked AWD either for racing.

I hear the rally guys seem to like it though.

[avishal26]

The spectacular failure apparently had more to do with their hybrid energy recovery system that was so bad at power delivery that they disabled it entirely. As per that article, that meant at initial acceleration they only had 50% of the power compared to their competition.

And they had numerous other mechanical failures and a crash test failure apparently.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by avishal26
The spectacular failure apparently had more to do with their hybrid energy recovery system that was so bad at power delivery that they disabled it entirely. As per that article, that meant at initial acceleration they only had 50% of the power compared to their competition.

Sounds like another Japanese automaker I know....

[Zhao Kan]

Originally posted by ZiG-87


I hear the rally guys seem to like it though.

Completely different sport though. On Tarmac you have so much grip... and if you want more you can just go with a wider or stickier tire, or more downforce.

On tarmac you're adding 200lbs + for the awd 'benefit', which means you brake worse, corner worse, and have worse acceleration in a straight line. You also have more drivetrain loss, and more crap to break.

rwd also means your engine can sit lower giving a better vertical weight distribution, you can steer with the pedals instead of the steering wheel, and you do not need to master steering by weight transfer to get the car to rotate (which of the <100 people who road race in this province, it seems like very few people are aware of how to do that).

And the only positive with awd is it gives you slightly better ability to put power to the ground for a brief moment coming out of a corner (the point where the car is now rotated and aimed, but is still in the finishing process of completing the corner. This is the point where you may not be able to WOT as the rear tires are still using grip to corner, but there is a excess of grip not being utilized with the front tires) Which I already said you can largely cure by a wider or stickier tire, or more downforce).

Well screw that lol, which is why you don't see a lot of awd road race cars.

Off tarmac, you're talking a sport where your tires get lose with even a bit of throttle, making all the minute disadvantages of awd pale in comparison to that added acceleration you just gained thx to awd.

[zieg]

Oh yeah I know all that, sorry, my comment was meant as a joke since you didn't specify grip racing.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Zhao Kan


Completely different sport though. On Tarmac you have so much grip... and if you want more you can just go with a wider or stickier tire, or more downforce.

On tarmac you're adding 200lbs + for the awd 'benefit', which means you brake worse, corner worse, and have worse acceleration in a straight line. You also have more drivetrain loss, and more crap to break.

rwd also means your engine can sit lower giving a better vertical weight distribution, you can steer with the pedals instead of the steering wheel, and you do not need to master steering by weight transfer to get the car to rotate (which of the &lt;100 people who road race in this province, it seems like very few people are aware of how to do that).

And the only positive with awd is it gives you slightly better ability to put power to the ground for a brief moment coming out of a corner (the point where the car is now rotated and aimed, but is still in the finishing process of completing the corner. This is the point where you may not be able to WOT as the rear tires are still using grip to corner, but there is a excess of grip not being utilized with the front tires) Which I already said you can largely cure by a wider or stickier tire, or more downforce).

Well screw that lol, which is why you don't see a lot of awd road race cars.

Off tarmac, you're talking a sport where your tires get lose with even a bit of throttle, making all the minute disadvantages of awd pale in comparison to that added acceleration you just gained thx to awd.

Driving the 918 back to back with the P1 @ Laguna Seca, and Randy Pobst behind the wheel, the heavier and less powerful 918 was always faster. Randy attributed this to the 918's superior ability, because of AWD to pull out of the corners. "The McLaren could not exit the four slow corners at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca the way the 918 could, a clear and present contrast."

You kind of made blanket statements about AWD that don't necessarily hold true, lots of other factors should be considered, chief among them track characteristics and driving style.

[Zhao Kan]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2


Driving the 918 back to back with the P1 @ Laguna Seca, and Randy Pobst behind the wheel, the heavier and less powerful 918 was always faster. Randy attributed this to the 918's superior ability, because of AWD to pull out of the corners. &quot;The McLaren could not exit the four slow corners at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca the way the 918 could, a clear and present contrast.&quot;

You kind of made blanket statements about AWD that don't necessarily hold true, lots of other factors should be considered, chief among them track characteristics and driving style.

2 completely different cars. 2 completely different factory tires on them (the mclaren has the worse factory tire and is a lot skinnier). And on top of that the porsche has better power to weight (918 = 4.2lbs/hp mclaren = 4.3, and the porsche has 900ishlbs of torque vs 500ish in the mclaren), and i'm guessing a metric ton more R&D into it for handling.

If the porsche didn't set a faster lap time I'd be surprised.

Yes, a track will have an affect on lap times for car comparisons..... you're definitely going to see scenarios where one car will win at one track, and then lose at a different track to the same car, even with exactly the same models of car going against each other with something as simple as just a different gear set.

However driver style is irrelevant. There is one fastest way to drive a car, and using 'driving style' as an excuse for being slower translates into you don't know what you're supposed to be doing. 'Driving style' as an excuse to me means you're static/close minded/not learning/rigid/not able to adapt (all words that should never describe a race car driver), and therefore have failed at being a fast driver before you even set off.

And back to AWD. The day we have light weight motors or methods of delivering power to all 4 wheels, that can be used only when it is of benefit, that'll be the day RWD loses to AWD (and that day looks like it might be here soon). But for what most people have in awd cars, with subarus, audis, toyotas, and all that crap, where you are putting gobs of power to the front when you don't want it there..... well, that stuff sucks compared to rwd on tarmac. Like i said before, it's a 200lb+ handicap having awd in those cars IMO, and it makes the car harder to turn and therefore harder to hit the point where you can start using turning grip for accelerating grip.

And with your example. You're talking cars getting close to 1000hp........ and even still rwd is not having trouble setting a very similar time with a less powerful car. Imagine if we had a similar conversation about 250hp cars...

[962 kid]

Originally posted by Zhao Kan


2 completely different cars. 2 completely different factory tires on them (the mclaren has the worse factory tire and is a lot skinnier). And on top of that the porsche has better power to weight (918 = 4.2lbs/hp mclaren = 4.3, and the porsche has 900ishlbs of torque vs 500ish in the mclaren), and i'm guessing a metric ton more R&amp;D into it for handling.

If the porsche didn't set a faster lap time I'd be surprised.

Yes, a track will have an affect on lap times for car comparisons..... you're definitely going to see scenarios where one car will win at one track, and then lose at a different track to the same car, even with exactly the same models of car going against each other with something as simple as just a different gear set.

However driver style is irrelevant. There is one fastest way to drive a car, and using 'driving style' as an excuse for being slower translates into you don't know what you're supposed to be doing. 'Driving style' as an excuse to me means you're static/close minded/not learning/rigid/not able to adapt (all words that should never describe a race car driver), and therefore have failed at being a fast driver before you even set off.

And back to AWD. The day we have light weight motors or methods of delivering power to all 4 wheels, that can be used only when it is of benefit, that'll be the day RWD loses to AWD (and that day looks like it might be here soon). But for what most people have in awd cars, with subarus, audis, toyotas, and all that crap, where you are putting gobs of power to the front when you don't want it there..... well, that stuff sucks compared to rwd on tarmac. Like i said before, it's a 200lb+ handicap having awd in those cars IMO, and it makes the car harder to turn and therefore harder to hit the point where you can start using turning grip for accelerating grip.

And with your example. You're talking cars getting close to 1000hp........ and even still rwd is not having trouble setting a very similar time with a less powerful car. Imagine if we had a similar conversation about 250hp cars...

I think you may have misread whatever google article you sourced your P1 numbers from. Also, every hybrid LMP1 car competing was AWD and is in the 1000bhp range.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Zhao Kan
AWD can suck it too, as you're just adding weight which handicaps you everywhere, for a slight advantage coming out of a corner (in theory)

You do remember when you said this, right I gave you an example when it wasn't "theory", it was something experienced and documented by a pretty good driver (Randy Pobst)

Originally posted by Zhao Kan
And on top of that the porsche has better power to weight (918 = 4.2lbs/hp mclaren = 4.3, and the porsche has 900ishlbs of torque vs 500ish in the mclaren), and i'm guessing a metric ton more R&amp;D into it for handling.

Wait........what

You're claiming the car that weighs MORE and has LESS power has a better power to weight ratio? WTF.

Even if you take the 918 with Weissach Package you're looking at 4.08lbs/hp (Non Weissach is 4.16). The ratio in the P1 is 3.54lbs/hp.

For reference
http://jalopnik.com/the-ten-producti...eig-1641624397

However driver style is irrelevant. There is one fastest way to drive a car, and using 'driving style' as an excuse for being slower translates into you don't know what you're supposed to be doing.

Seriously? Then why bother ever setting the car up to a drivers "style". All drivers should drive cars setup identical I guess in your mind. Rosberg's car is setup EXACTLY like Hamilton's? Stop being silly. You made a blanket statement about AWD that simply isn't correct. The truth is there are tracks where AWD is an advantage and there are times where because of driving style a person will find themselves faster in an AWD car.

[Maxt]

Is Laguna seca an AWD drive track or a RWD track?

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Maxt
Is Laguna seca an AWD drive track or a RWD track?

You just wanna post something about the ACR