Cecil the lion

[lilmira]

K, enough about the drowning incident, how about Cecil the lion?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33699346

Cecill the famous lion in Zimbabwe was lured out of the national park, shot by a bow arrow, got chased and eventually killed by a rifle. It was found skinned and beheaded. Cecil is collared and monitored. His cubs will likely be killed by another male without his protection.

It has been unveiled that the hunter is an American dentist, supposedly paid 50k to hunt the lion. He claimed everything was done legally to his knowledge. Regardless of legality, he is now in trouble facing the rage of public opinion.

I wouldn't kill such a magnificent animal for sports but then I'm not a hunter.

Fire at will!

[killramos]

Crux of the matter is if it was legal or not. Personal opinions on trophy hunting aside that's the only part that matters.

If an elk wanders from a national park to a designated hunting zone and you have the tag for it that would be legal here?

Now in Canada you cant bait ( which would make luring something out of a park difficult). You could probably chase it out though. I am not an expert in hunting laws.

If he or his contractors who he paid to facilitate the hunt broke the law at any point in the hunting of the lion then throw him to the dogs. No sympathy.

Otherwise put a damn fence around your park if you wont want animals getting out. Or don't allow the hunting outside of the parks anyways.

Now as for the whole trophy hunting is unethical thing. I'm not going there.

[FraserB]

Depending on what you're hunting, baiting is legal (in Alberta at least). There are rules around it, but you are allowed to.

This situation isn't any different that paying for a guided hunt in Canada. You're paying for the experience of the guide and making sure you stay legal. The onus is on the guide to ensure all laws are followed. If the law id broken, almost all the liability should rest with the guide.

Also, my understanding is that the legitimate trophy hunts overseas don't waste the meat. You get to hunt and possibly keep a trophy, but a village will take the meat and use.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[KRyn]

Originally posted by killramos


Now in Canada you cant bait ( which would make luring something out of a park difficult).

You can actually bait bears in Alberta legally, it is a common practice to begin baiting bears before the season opens.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by KRyn


You can actually bait bears in Alberta legally, it is a common practice to begin baiting bears before the season opens.

In some areas you can also bait deer, elk, moose, etc...Just not in hunting season IIRC. Been a long ass time since I went hunting.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

I'm no fan of trophy hunting by any means, but the dentist got screwed by the guides, who are paid to know what is/isn't legal to hunt. They're the ones who should be facing the music but I guarantee the public is just going to put all the blame on the hunter.

[lilmira]

Yeah, I think he will be more in trouble facing the court of public than the court of law which happens more and more nowadays.

[taemo]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
I'm no fan of trophy hunting by any means, but the dentist got screwed by the guides, who are paid to know what is/isn't legal to hunt. They're the ones who should be facing the music but I guarantee the public is just going to put all the blame on the hunter.

^this

When I first heard about this incident yesterday, my initial thought was that it was the dentist's fault, after all he was the one that paid and shot Cecil, but this morning after hearing it on the radio, I started to think that it might not be entirely his fault but rather the two that organized the hunt for him.

IMO, as long he has proper documentation that he legally arrange a trophy hunt and that he was unaware of the National Park lion that he shot, he shouldn't be entirely at fault.

But then, there are other questions that may rise.
When was the collar removed from the lion. Did the dentist see the collar or did the 2 organizers remove it before the start hunt.

[blitz]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
I'm no fan of trophy hunting by any means, but the dentist got screwed by the guides, who are paid to know what is/isn't legal to hunt. They're the ones who should be facing the music but I guarantee the public is just going to put all the blame on the hunter.

Isn't the current version of the story that he paid $50k in bribes in order to set this up? This guys is a major big game hunter, I don't think he was a clueless tourist in this case.

[SmAcKpOo]

There is no place for trophy hunting. People who engage in it have some mental issues.

I have a family friend who does it and he's the typical 1% elitist douche.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
They're the ones who should be facing the music but I guarantee the public is just going to put all the blame on the hunter.

Yup. Dude is fucked on public opinion alone.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...n-dentist.html

Originally posted by blitz


Isn't the current version of the story that he paid $50k in bribes in order to set this up? This guys is a major big game hunter, I don't think he was a clueless tourist in this case.

His excuse is blaming the guides but as an experienced hunter, would you even hunt so close to reserve?

The fact that he has a history of illegal hunts and going after endangered animals, he is not totally innocent either.

Originally posted by taemo
But then, there are other questions that may rise.
When was the collar removed from the lion. Did the dentist see the collar or did the 2 organizers remove it before the start hunt.

According the version I read, they didn't find the collar until the final shot and they attempted to remove it or damaged it during the decapitation.

[TL911]

The Dentist should be found, stripped naked and thrown out in the Zimbabwe jungle to be hunted by Lions. Also add in a bunch of lion advocates to hunt him like the hunger games.

[civic_stylez]

The slaughter and desecration of Africa's wildlife for sport and from poaching will ultimately be the demise of their tourism industry. Why they don't do more to protect elephants, rhinos and big cats baffles me as once they are gone, no one is going to visit Africa.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by civic_stylez
The slaughter and desecration of Africa's wildlife for sport and from poaching will ultimately be the demise of their tourism industry. Why they don't do more to protect elephants, rhinos and big cats baffles me as once they are gone, no one is going to visit Africa.

They do recognize that, and people are trying.

But you also assume that Africa has law and order like the western world.

[lasimmon]

Originally posted by FraserB
Depending on what you're hunting, baiting is legal (in Alberta at least). There are rules around it, but you are allowed to.

This situation isn't any different that paying for a guided hunt in Canada. You're paying for the experience of the guide and making sure you stay legal. The onus is on the guide to ensure all laws are followed. If the law id broken, almost all the liability should rest with the guide.

Also, my understanding is that the legitimate trophy hunts overseas don't waste the meat. You get to hunt and possibly keep a trophy, but a village will take the meat and use.

You realize they cut off the head, skinned the lion, tried to destroy the locator, and left the body to rot right?

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
What is Cecil famous for?

I know people who hunt game in Africa; they pay big bucks to local companies to ensure it is legal. It sounds like they fucked the dentist on this one

He was being studied by the University of Oxford.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by blitz


Isn't the current version of the story that he paid $50k in bribes in order to set this up? This guys is a major big game hunter, I don't think he was a clueless tourist in this case.

Were they bribes? Paying for the setup of a guided hunt (be it for lions, moose, hogs or whatever) is extremely common and not bribery. You're paying the landowner for access to his land (which he has a hunting permit for), and usually for the services of a guide who is experienced in the area and game you're after. Self-guided hunts are also an option but are less popular as they are generally less successful than a guided hunt due to the hunter now knowing the area well. The person who is buying the hunt (eg. the dentist) does not arrange permits or other legal matters, he pays the guides (also referred to as "outfitters") to set up a legal hunt for him. He may be an experienced trophy hunter, but that doesn't mean he knows the ins and outs of hunting legalities in Zimbabwe and it would be reasonable to leave that up to the local "professionals".

It's entirely possible he didn't even know there was a reserve next door, and from the sound of it the landowner may have lied to him about having a hunting permit for his land at all. Shitty situation for the dentist, even moreso for the lion.

[D'z Nutz]

Originally posted by blitz
Isn't the current version of the story that he paid $50k in bribes in order to set this up? This guys is a major big game hunter, I don't think he was a clueless tourist in this case.

Originally posted by Xtrema
His excuse is blaming the guides but as an experienced hunter, would you even hunt so close to reserve?

The fact that he has a history of illegal hunts and going after endangered animals, he is not totally innocent either.

Yeah I doubt he's as innocent has he's claiming he is. How is it hunting if you have to bait an animal out of an area you're not allowed to kill them? And yeah he's done this before, so it's not like he didn't know.

[spikerS]

It all comes down to if the hunt was legal or not. He is being crucified for nothing right now with the blind rage of public knee jerk reactions. The gov't there is trying to save face as well.

He has released a statement saying that he had all the necessary permits, and that it was a legal hunt. He hired professional hunting guides to ensure that the hunt remained legal. The lion was not shot on the reserve.

I have only 3 questions in my mind. 1, was the hunt legal and properly permitted and 2, the ethical stance of the guides who lured the lion off the reserve and lastly, was all of the carcass recovered?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
It's entirely possible he didn't even know there was a reserve next door, and from the sound of it the landowner may have lied to him about having a hunting permit for his land at all. Shitty situation for the dentist, even moreso for the lion.

So you shot a lion, see it has a collar and decided to cut off head, skin it anyway instead of nope out of this asking for a refund?