Miss Universe, Canadian First Nations, Using her new found voice.

[gwill]

So many complications to every solution that the debate goes round and round in circles. Add in the trust issues on both sides(Indian and govt) and the debate always gets heated. It's a generational issue that hasn't had wounds fully healed yet for people to completely move on.

There is lots that can be done but gets tied up in red tape. For many reserves basic amenities like clean drinking water or safe roads would be a start...

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by ickyflex
Your shitty debates make the situation far worse than they do better. You guys should be the public figures, makes my cases a lot easier to pitch

Please do go on, I'm genuinely interested in hearing you defend your points of view. Especially this one. Let's hear your cases and their respective arguments.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by gwill
For many reserves basic amenities like clean drinking water or safe roads would be a start...

Honest question, who's responsibility is it to deliver those things?

As far as I am aware, and please correct me if I am wrong, the point of the reserves are to live in a more natural manner akin to native americans pasts.

So, if we, the country of Canada, provide the things out of our own pockets (I am not saying that you are suggesting we should, I am saying if that was the solution), why have the reserves at all? They are therefore forced segregation. Why segregation is ok as long as one group demands it but not others is beyond me, and I do not see why we should have to pay for it

[Robin Goodfellow]

WTF? Still no pics?

Seriously?

[gwill]

Hi temp- I think you need to understand how a reserve became theirs. A lot of the times it was from treaties natives were forced to sign that said certain land was now there's. Sometimes Forcing them to remote areas, land that wasn't valuable or areas that just weren't needed. Most of the treaties were signed under duress or very lopsided.

We are going back 100-150 years or more for a lot of this but those were the treaties that were stuck to... It's not like the natives had a lot of options back then. So when I read about the basic necessities not being met on a reserve I believe the govt should be doing something about it.

Don't forget natives were forced into residential schools so they could be saved from their native heritage. The schools were mandatory for children so they could be assimilated into Canadian culture, taught to forget their native heritage, language and beliefs. Children were murdered and raped as they attended these schools. My moms parents and all her friends were part of these schools, many of our family died in them. It wasn't that long ago that many still operated.

So while many believe natives have these luxury resorts they live on that they can live and avoid taxes their is a lot of history involved. So yeah the basic necessities like water and shelter or roads isn't a lot to ask for when you consider the history involved.

I'm respectful of all the issues in the past natives have faced but realize to move forward our reserves need to be more accountable and work towards building a better life for all those who live there.

[Brent.ff]

I'm listening.. I promise

[AllGoNoShow]

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
WTF? Still no pics?

Seriously?

http://www.playboy.com/articles/the-...gn=mrsuniverse

[01RedDX]

.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Originally posted by gwill
Hi temp- I think you need to understand how a reserve became theirs. A lot of the times it was from treaties natives were forced to sign that said certain land was now there's. Sometimes Forcing them to remote areas, land that wasn't valuable or areas that just weren't needed. Most of the treaties were signed under duress or very lopsided.

We are going back 100-150 years or more for a lot of this but those were the treaties that were stuck to... It's not like the natives had a lot of options back then. So when I read about the basic necessities not being met on a reserve I believe the govt should be doing something about it.

Don't forget natives were forced into residential schools so they could be saved from their native heritage. The schools were mandatory for children so they could be assimilated into Canadian culture, taught to forget their native heritage, language and beliefs. Children were murdered and raped as they attended these schools. My moms parents and all her friends were part of these schools, many of our family died in them. It wasn't that long ago that many still operated.

So while many believe natives have these luxury resorts they live on that they can live and avoid taxes their is a lot of history involved. So yeah the basic necessities like water and shelter or roads isn't a lot to ask for when you consider the history involved.

I'm respectful of all the issues in the past natives have faced but realize to move forward our reserves need to be more accountable and work towards building a better life for all those who live there.

Awesome post.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by gwill
Hi temp- I think you need to understand how a reserve became theirs. A lot of the times it was from treaties natives were forced to sign that said certain land was now there's. Sometimes Forcing them to remote areas, land that wasn't valuable or areas that just weren't needed. Most of the treaties were signed under duress or very lopsided.

We are going back 100-150 years or more for a lot of this but those were the treaties that were stuck to... It's not like the natives had a lot of options back then. So when I read about the basic necessities not being met on a reserve I believe the govt should be doing something about it.

Don't forget natives were forced into residential schools so they could be saved from their native heritage.

So you agree that we should get rid of the reserves? If its a system that natives themselves don't want, then I think everyone would be happy to get rid of it. And there are substantial powers at play that WANT to keep the reserve system, because internally it allows someone to have their own fiefdom with little oversight.

I understand about residential schools. But I disagree with that "I" must pay for the past mistakes, especially when while native americans say they got a raw deal (I would say the did, I agree with that), the deal could have been much worse (complete genocide).

I'm looking at it from both perspectives is all. Native americans try and force what the government has done as a statement as to the mindset of the Canadian population. I've never treated a native american poorly. A drunk asshole bum who is harassing me? I don't care if you are white, purple, or native, I'm not going to be happy about that person. A person with more, special "rights" than me? I'm going to be unhappy about that person, especially if I have to pay for that.

[ickyflex]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


Please do go on, I'm genuinely interested in hearing you defend your points of view. Especially this one. Let's hear your cases and their respective arguments.

There is no argument to be had. The community as a whole is frowned upon for a reason. I've come to accept we pay for a lot of bs, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. At the end of the day my original argument is this lady could have taken this as an opportunity to shine light on the community and drive change but instead just reiterated why so many people dislike what is happening.

You all pitch the oh they are born into these drug filled communities so they have a pass to be who they are. There are children born into poverty across the globe who would kill to have the opportunity to be born into that. We're in North America and they have the option, which many put to waste. So no i'm not going to pity those who are at least given an option.

[JRSC00LUDE]

^

So essentially, you can't defend your argument so it's just an opinion. Got ya.

There's nothing wrong with having a different opinion fyi, but when you're going to say something like "Your shitty debates make the situation far worse than they do better. You guys should be the public figures, makes my cases a lot easier to pitch", then you should at least have the fortitude to back it up because right now it's YOUR debate which is shitty and rendering your opinion irrelevant.

There's also a large difference between children born into poverty and children born into poverty coupled with addictions and abuse. You're certainly not comparing apples to apples with that parallel and honestly, the more you say the less informed you appear so I suppose you're right in there's no argument to be had.....

Carry on.

[suntan]

Originally posted by bspot


I do?

People can live wherever they want. Except Airdrie. Or Edmonton.

I get tired of people bitching about things based on their desire for the city only to cater to their specific lifestyle and transport method.

I've lived inner city and in the burbs, so I guess I have to hate myself for one of those?

Well you should, but you don't, so there's that.

Yeah I'm sure you roll your eyes at the cyclists that have lobbied for more proxy.

[gwill]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


So you agree that we should get rid of the reserves? If its a system that natives themselves don't want, then I think everyone would be happy to get rid of it. And there are substantial powers at play that WANT to keep the reserve system, because internally it allows someone to have their own fiefdom with little oversight.

A person with more, special "rights" than me? I'm going to be unhappy about that person, especially if I have to pay for that.

Where did i say get rid of the reserves? I acknowledge their issues and that over sight is a great thing that should be put in place. For example a chief on a reserve shouldn't be making hundreds of thousands of dollars(in 95% of cases). I don't have a magic wand to say how to fix things but i can tell you i rage when i hear about natives setting up toll booths outside of Calgary on a major highways, or natives blockading pipelines but approving other ones, or natives being kicked off their reserves because they have a white boyfriend or girlfriend. Worst thing I read today was about the reserves who won't get funding because they are not complying with the transparency act and are now blaming the govt for people on those reserves who will suffer. Politics on reserves at its best.

As for the rights "SOME" treaty natives have they came at a cost you see as acceptable. Would you think the same way if it was your parents and grand parents who died in residential schools, while getting raped or seeing friends murdered? Of course you wouldn't. That would be barbaric... but its acceptable and forgettable because it only happened to natives.

In the end everyone's entitled to their opinion but like you most Canadians don't understand where reserves came from, the challenges natives face on them or the extreme poverty they live in. Its easier to believe that all natives don't pay taxes and live in luxury resorts while ignoring the history behind everything.

As I've said lots, accountability starts with the individuals and their reserves to make a difference. Yes the past matters but to move forward people need to forgive and worry about the present not the past.

[ickyflex]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
^

So essentially, you can't defend your argument so it's just an opinion. Got ya.

There's nothing wrong with having a different opinion fyi, but when you're going to say something like "Your shitty debates make the situation far worse than they do better. You guys should be the public figures, makes my cases a lot easier to pitch", then you should at least have the fortitude to back it up because right now it's YOUR debate which is shitty and rendering your opinion irrelevant.

There's also a large difference between children born into poverty and children born into poverty coupled with addictions and abuse. You're certainly not comparing apples to apples with that parallel and honestly, the more you say the less informed you appear so I suppose you're right in there's no argument to be had.....

Carry on.

Never said there was anything wrong with having a different opinion. You keep white knighting and i'll keep living in reality. Enjoy the fairy land while it lasts.

You never once addressed my point that she could be using her position to address serious issues that go on within the reserves which was already addressed as being a corrupt tribe to begin with. The fact you can't even address the one neutral point I make shows your white knight attitude has failed. I gave her the benefit of the doubt and even the people with your so called "knowledge" have agreed but you can't.

[bspot]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer


So what should we do? I haven't seen throwing money at the issue to be effective and more hands on help has previously exacerbated issues. Are we even capable of fixing or helping or does basically any help from us discourage or hinder them?

That's a really tough question. I don't know if there is much for a successful precedent out there.

All I do know, is what we are doing now doesn't appear to be helping, so trying anything different could be a start.

[bspot]

Originally posted by suntan
Well you should, but you don't, so there's that.

Yeah I'm sure you roll your eyes at the cyclists that have lobbied for more proxy.

Of course I'm biased for things relating to biking, as that's how I get to work. I also understand that doing things in the best interests for everybody keeps groups like cyclists from being hated on by the rest of the population in future.

I've spoken out many times against dickhead cyclists giving the rest a bad name, as well as projects I felt were ridiculous, such as the 7th street cycle track being the selected pilot.

Also for scrapping the cycle track on the 13th Ave greenway and putting it on 12th Ave.

Also for not putting it on 10th Ave if you were going to skip the greenway.

I'm sure I'm quite biased, but I do my best to not be "yayyy bike!"

As far as this discussion goes, I'm not a native. I have no native friends. I can't think of any current native coworkers.

I still think the racism towards natives and the living conditions and lack of family structure that is still pervasive and was highly influenced by the rest of Canadians is disgusting.

I think the suggestion that they are all on easy street, but for some reason are a racially inferior group that refuses to take advantage of their opportunistic circumstances is completely preposterous.

I commend gwill for being able to come in here and ignore all the borderline posts that started this thread off, and for providing some perspective from a viewpoint none of us have.

[C_Dave45]

Shes hot. She seems smart and well put together. Who the fuck cares about all the political garbage? She's not going to change anything anyways.

Hope she does a shoot for Playboy.

[A790]

Originally posted by ickyflex
There is no argument to be had. The community as a whole is frowned upon for a reason. I've come to accept we pay for a lot of bs, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. At the end of the day my original argument is this lady could have taken this as an opportunity to shine light on the community and drive change but instead just reiterated why so many people dislike what is happening.

You all pitch the oh they are born into these drug filled communities so they have a pass to be who they are. There are children born into poverty across the globe who would kill to have the opportunity to be born into that. We're in North America and they have the option, which many put to waste. So no i'm not going to pity those who are at least given an option.

We have very different opinions on what reality is, clearly.

One of the things that I feel you lack is perspective, and specifically, perspective on how difficult it actually is to overcome your environment when every person you meet has a bias against you.

The community as a whole is frowned upon for a reason.

And what reason is that? I'm curious to learn why you frown on their community.

I've worked with a few Tsuu T'ina over the last few years and have had great dealings with them. I've found them fair and ethical... almost as if they were normal, like you or I. Interesting how that works...

When we talk about the type of environment that many natives are born into, we don't do so to give them a "pass to be who they are". We do so because it provides necessary perspective and context surrounding the conditions that person has lived in, and what has shaped them overall.

Lastly, you are incorrect in your assumption that these people want or need your pity. They don't. What they need is a fair and honest shake, free from racial bias, and the proper programs and treatments needed to help those who want to escape the cycle of addiction and poverty to actually do that.

Despite your assertions, they are not on equal footing as you or I. Not on a societal level. They are viewed as being privileged for having some taxation breaks and a reserve to live on, yet it is those same "privileges" that prevent other citizens (such as yourself) from approaching them with any level of fairness or honesty.

Straight up: you need to have more respect and compassion for your fellow man, regardless of who they are or where they came from. Try to understand more, entrench your bias less. Maybe your opinion will change, maybe it won't, but at least you'll have some education and perspective to shape your opinion.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Stop white knighting maaaaan....