Secret TPP trade deal...Harper attempting to ram it through in 24 hours.

[Toma]

Well shit.

DICKtator.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Link? What is this even about?

[Xtrema]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tran...deal-1.3256151

TPP will replace NAFTA BTW.

Timing of this is bad for an election. Once passed, even if Liberal/NDP takes over, there is nothing can be done. Much like how NAFTA sunk Mulroney PC, but we still have it.

The negotiation isn't transparent. We don't really know as public what our government is signing us up for. Only dairy industry seems to be hit the hardest. The auto sector already left for Mexico so that doesn't really hurt much.

While the biggest beef I have TPP is about copyright and pharma:

This will bring DMCA into Canadian soil:
https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp

TPP = more expensive drugs:
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org...-agreement-tpp

So in a way, we may be trading away our sovereignty, piece by piece.

In principle, an unlimited market to that many countries sounds good. But since we only start to feel the impact of NAFTA 20 years later, we really won't know what TPP will do to us long after current batch of politicians are gone.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Interesting, thanks for the useful, informative post.

[Xtrema]

Also, as much as I want to blame Harper, I think the Liberals may sign this deal too. The timing also isn't controlled by us but having a partner in negotiation that may change its tune in 2 weeks may speed things up a bit.

Only NDP will lock themselves out from this since their support base would be least interested in having such trade deals.

[frizzlefry]

A country of our size really needs trade deals. We are not big enough to trade with ourselves. Being the odd man out would certainly harm us more than any potential impact to certain industries.

The details have yet to be even discussed and this agreement is a long ways off from actually being implemented. It's just broad stroke agreements at this point before negotiations continue. I doubt DMCA was even mentioned.

[frizzlefry]

Oh, and they are not forcing member states to adopt USA DMCA.

Article

It's a work in progress. Before its lambasted we should likely wait to see whats in it.

[ZenOps]

I look at it like this:

If what we have been doing so far only puts eight varieties of the 100 different varieties of Cambells chunky soup on Canadian shelves - something is wrong.

[rage2]

Allow good cheese to be imported. Check.

No tariffs on JDM cars. Check.

Strengthen our weak piracy and copyright laws. Check.

What's the problem?

[BigMass]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
Link? What is this even about?

fucking over free human beings? What else has Harper ever done but. I'm sure if he really could have his way he'd have the death penalty for anyone caught with a joint. I'm also pretty sure he'd have anyone strung up caught downloading Game of Thrones if he could. Oh, and if the USA had a big giant cock, I'm sure he'd love to gobble it all up from here to eternity. That would be heaven for him.

[nzwasp]

This is the bit i dont like:

Adopt Criminal Sanctions: Adopt criminal sanctions for copyright infringement that is done without a commercial motivation. Users could be jailed or hit with debilitating fines over file sharing, and may have their property or domains seized even without a formal complaint from the copyright holder.

So my uncle is a tory MP in NZ who has been widely criticized for supporting the TPP and he defends the non transparency parts by saying that everyone will get to see the details before they vote it in. But who cares, it wont matter if we get to see it it will still pass if the govt in charge wants it too. They cant suddently opt out of this and that clause just because they decided it was a bad deal.


For my interest what are the downloading rules in the states. Do you still face massive unreasonable fines if caught downloading.

[HiTempguy1]

Free trade isn't about free trade, its about free movement if capital. It does nothing but fuck us little guys over

Being the odd man out does hurt us if everyone else agrees to play along. Its no different than big business forcing wages down by bringing in people out of country to do the work, but instead of having to do that, now the work will just happen elsewhere where the cost of living/standard of living is lower so they don't even have to bother having the money stay in Canada.

The funny thing is, at the end of the day, any trade agreement is just that, an agreement, and it can be nullified at any point. Trump (one thing I can agree with him on) says this exact same thing.

Unfortunately, the damage was already done with NAFTA, you can't retroactively go back and replenish the lost jobs and capital that has permanently left this country by changing the laws now. These agreements are truly a permanent change to our economy, even if they can be rescinded.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by nzwasp
This is the bit i dont like:

Adopt Criminal Sanctions: Adopt criminal sanctions for copyright infringement that is done without a commercial motivation. Users could be jailed or hit with debilitating fines over file sharing, and may have their property or domains seized even without a formal complaint from the copyright holder.

So my uncle is a tory MP in NZ who has been widely criticized for supporting the TPP and he defends the non transparency parts by saying that everyone will get to see the details before they vote it in. But who cares, it wont matter if we get to see it it will still pass if the govt in charge wants it too. They cant suddently opt out of this and that clause just because they decided it was a bad deal.


For my interest what are the downloading rules in the states. Do you still face massive unreasonable fines if caught downloading.

As I previously posted, they are not doing that. The USA will not be able to enforce their DMCA when it contradicts with current laws. This was from a leak that came after the initial leak from USA documents that indicated they asked for that.

Keep in mind that everything we know about this has been leaked from early drafts, drafted by individual countries without consensus of other member nations. There is no secrecy here. There is no public consultation because there is nothing to consult people on. These meetings are simply to see if nations agree somewhat on preliminary broad strokes to determine if any further meetings have any point. The TPP is in it's infancy.

Harper isn't "ramming anything" as there is nothing to ram. The timetable was not set by him and there is nothing solid to consult anyone on because, as I said, this is in baby stages. Opting out would mean the TPP would still move forward without Canada. Want to kill jobs because that's how you kill jobs. Why trade with Canada when its cheaper to trade with nations who are part of the TPP?

The nations are simply engaging in meetings to agree to have more meetings. That's why it's so "secret". There is nothing to share. No other nations are consulting their people either because there is nothing concrete to debate or present for debate.

Mulcair on a dairy farm crying about poor farmers makes great campaigning fuel. Even though dairy is only 6% of Canada's farming and the rest of our farming community are massive exporters and really want TPP to happen. It's Mulcair being a politician trying to scare votes out of people. He buys Quebec, scares everyone else. Don't get me wrong, Harper does that fear shit too...although when its an economic fear campaign against the NDP he is likely right. Mulclair would fuck over 94% of our farmers to save 6% that he was on TV with. He's a parasite.

Liberals have said "lets look at it first, see what ends up on the table and look at it". Good idea.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
Free trade isn't about free trade, its about free movement if capital. It does nothing but fuck us little guys over

The economist on TV (a prof at some university) would disagree. 1 in 5 jobs in Canada now are due to NAFTA. He actually stated that it is vital for small nations to be involved. He also admitted that some industries get fucked. You lose some jobs but gain more in other areas with these types of agreements.

It's a balancing act and of course unions would fight to keep their, say, 20000 jobs even though 50000 in different sectors would be created.

Dude said from a high level view Canada has gained from NAFTA. Guy is a respected economics professor, never brought in politics except to say the NDP had no clue what they were talking about.

[Toma]

A blatant and increased threat to our sovereignty, forced privatization of taxpayer held assets etc.

Secret trade deal that will cost us bad.

DICKtator supporters.

[Toma]

"But with the Trans Pacific Partnership free trade agreement suddenly looming up smack in the middle of Election 2015, Harper is going to have to do something he hates doing — telling you more or less what he’s done.
But will he be honest?
“Oh God, no, never. This guy has done nine trade deals, seven of which have been implemented. Since then, we’ve gone from a $55 billion trade surplus in Canada to a $35 billion deficit.”
Those words belong to Jerry Dias, the president of Unifor, the largest public service union in Canada. Unifor has over 300,000 members, more than the number of Canadians who belong to all political parties in this country combined."

[Toma]

If the rumours about the TPP prove to be true, namely, that dairy farmers and autoworkers are about to get shafted in the name of selling more beef and petrochemicals, Dias will be in the forefront of the mobilization against the deal.

For one thing, the union boss has reservations that it is even legal for the Harper government to agree in principle to such a momentous policy matter while parliament is dissolved. The Conservatives are only a caretaker government until the election is decided — even though they changed the convention on that very issue just before the writs were issued.

That’s one of the reasons that NDP leader Thomas Mulcair has publicly said he will not be bound by any announcement Harper may make on the TPP. Another reason is that Harper has offered neither Mulcair nor Liberal leader Justin Trudeau any briefings — customarily the very minimum courtesy in a writ period, or at least it was until now.

[Toma]

nah, [redacted] dictator would never do anything illegal, or pass laws that violate our charter.

lol

[Toma]

huh...

But for Dias, who believes Harper has presided over the deconstruction of manufacturing jobs in Canada for “ideological” reasons, there is the bitter memory of the South Korea trade deal as well.

“He lied his brains out on that one,” said Dias. “He said everything would be good for Canada’s auto sector. I thought that was the biggest joke of all. We sold no vehicles into that country. We still don’t.

“Then it got better. He said the deal would be good for beef farmers. When 19 cases of BSE were found in Alberta, the Koreans closed their market to our beef. The net result of that deal? A plus-eight increase in South Korean imports into Canada, and a minus-seven export of Canadian products to South Korea. Every trade deal he has done has been a disaster. He has wiped out the manufacturing sector, 450,000 lost jobs.”
So why in the middle of a tight election campaign would Harper try to land a free-trade deal that creates some very real, high-profile losers? Dias thinks it’s all personal politics. Harper wants a piece of paper to wave around in the final approach to voting day on October 19th — some form of documentary evidence that he is the master of economic issues.

But he also thinks Harper is thinking selfishly beyond the results of the October 19 vote.
“It is, I think, all about his legacy at this point,” said Dias. “He knows that he can’t win a majority in this election and that is the end of him. That’s why it doesn’t bother him that there will be a helluva political fallout from autoworkers and farmers when it comes out that he has betrayed them like he betrayed veterans.”

Dias also believes Harper will turn to a select few representatives of the auto-parts manufacturing association to hail the deal, a diversionary tactic that will turn the public’s attention from the real winners and losers of what may be coming down the pike to a pretend endorsement.

[Toma]

PHD Economist, Robert Reich. Former Secretary of Labour under Clinton.

"why its the worst trade deal youve never heard of".

https://www.youtube.com/attribution_...eature%3Dshare