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Thread: UNODC in talks to decriminalise all drugs world wide.

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    I think I am pretty supportive of decriminalization from a Darwinistic perspective. Good way to start weeding out people who have genetic tendencies towards addiction and substance abuse etc. Sad but true.

    The main problem i see is if ( note i said if ) more people end up on hard drugs what kind of impact that will have on the public healthcare system.

    Maybe leaving addicts on the hook for their own rehab or OD costs

    Besides if more people are satisfied with being high all day that just increases my ability to compete in a competitive workforce for better jobs

    With regard to all this talk what do people think of this in the context of when flooding a society with easy access and inexpensive drugs was considered a way to weaken a country prior to or during a war?

    Historically i believe this was done in some south china area states and opium by the British?

    Seems to discredit the concept that easy access to drugs doesn't increase use?
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    Originally posted by 01RedDX



    I guess the people of Portugal are a bunch of pot-heads whose overdose death rate is 6x lower than the EU average.

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    In July 2001, a new law maintained the status of illegality for using or possessing any drug for personal use without authorization. The offense was changed from a criminal one, with prison a possible punishment, to an administrative one if the amount possessed was no more than ten days' supply of that substance.[1] This was in line with the de facto Portuguese drug policy before the reform. Drug addicts were then to be aggressively targeted with therapy or community service rather than fines or waivers.[10] Even if there are no criminal penalties, these changes did not legalize drug use in Portugal. Possession has remained prohibited by Portuguese law, and criminal penalties are still applied to drug growers, dealers and traffickers
    Portugal decriminalized it. Which I am all for as it allows for some control by the government in terms of getting people treatment. That resulted in the decline. Full out broad stoke legalization removes that "administrative" power to force people into treatment. The Netherlands also decriminalized it. Recreational drugs are still illegal there and they don't prosecute pot possession or sale. There isn't really any country that has legalized drugs and I find that people tend to back-up their libertarian view of legalizing drugs with stats that resulted from decriminalization. Those two are very very different.

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    Originally posted by frizzlefry



    Responsible use of alcohol is very possible and in wide practice. Responsible use of meth isn't something I see as a possibility.
    Fizzle, your points are well made, and I don't mean to pick nits, but I don't know that responsible use of Alcohol is possible. I was about to suggest that the costs of irresponsible use are lower, but I'm not even sure that's the case.

    Meth certainly is uglier, and ruins the user's life, and can cause crime, but it seems to be that the crimes are limited in scope, whereas the cost of alcohol seems to have a much greater reach (drunk driving).

    Yes, I know this sentiment is half-baked... But overall, I'd be cautious in giving Alchohol a pass vis-a-vis meth.

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    "Alcohol not so bad in comparison to meth." I guess you could try to go with that unless you actually look at the data:

    Annual Causes of Death in the United States


    (Source: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Caus....feA5ZFQI.dpbs)

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    Originally posted by sabad66


    It all comes down to responsible use and education.
    What hard drugs have you done? Legit question....if you haven't then you don't know what it does to you.

    Not that I fully disagree(with ur initial post) but hard drugs can't be controlled with the words responsible and education.
    Last edited by ryder_23; 10-22-2015 at 10:56 AM.

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    Originally posted by 01RedDX
    "Alcohol not so bad in comparison to meth." I guess you could try to go with that unless you actually look at the data:

    Annual Causes of Death in the United States


    (Source: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Caus....feA5ZFQI.dpbs)
    Is that adjusted for number of users? There are about 4.8 million illicit drug users (used at least once in the past month, excluding pot) in the USA which is about 1.5% of the population. 86% of people in the USA have had a drink in the past month or drink on a regular basis. Yet deaths from illicit drugs is about 1/3rd of booze despite having 57 times fewer users.

    If the rate of illicit drug use was the same a booze than the deaths from it would be in the range of 969,000 which is worse than cancer and heart disease. Making illicit drugs, excluding pot, about 20x more dangerous than booze on an individual user basis.

    *edit* of course as a nationwide issue alcohol certainly has illicit drugs beat. But that can be attributed to the fact that it is....legalized and socially accepted. I'm not advocating that we make booze illegal, that would make me very sad, but there has to be serious consideration when discussing legalizing something that is 20 times more dangerous. If the goal is reduced addiction and harm then decriminalization, not legalization, is clearly the way to go.
    Last edited by frizzlefry; 10-22-2015 at 11:23 AM.

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    Originally posted by frizzlefry


    Is that adjusted for number of users? There are about 4.8 million illicit drug users (used at least once in the past month, excluding pot) in the USA which is about 1.5% of the population. 86% of people in the USA have had a drink in the past month or drink on a regular basis. Yet deaths from illicit drugs is about 1/3rd of booze despite having 57 times fewer users.

    If the rate of illicit drug use was the same a booze than the deaths from it would be in the range of 969,000 which is worse than cancer and heart disease. Making illicit drugs, excluding pot, about 20x more dangerous than booze on an individual user basis.
    I think you're missing his point.

    The people that want to do these drugs are already doing them.

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    Originally posted by frizzlefry


    Is that adjusted for number of users? There are about 4.8 million illicit drug users (used at least once in the past month, excluding pot) in the USA which is about 1.5% of the population. 86% of people in the USA have had a drink in the past month or drink on a regular basis. Yet deaths from illicit drugs is about 1/3rd of booze despite having 57 times fewer users.
    Source? Everything I see points to ~30 million users or 10%.

    Originally posted by frizzlefry
    If the rate of illicit drug use was the same a booze than the deaths from it would be in the range of 969,000. Making illicit drugs, excluding pot, about 20x more dangerous than booze on an individual user basis.
    Which again only matters if you can prove that decriminalization or legalization increases the number of users, an argument for which there is no real basis. I think the real concern is keeping it out of the hands of kids and young people, for which there is no good solution, aside from education and parenting.

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    Direct deaths from type II diabetes really derives from abuse of one of the most common drugs - Sugar.

    Sugar directly by way of diabetes and indirectly (through obesity and cardiovascular disease) kills far more people worldwide than all other drugs combined - with the arguable exception of alcohol (which can be considered by a chemist, a refined sugar, like rum)
    Last edited by ZenOps; 10-22-2015 at 11:58 AM.
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    Originally posted by 01RedDX


    Source? Everything I see points to ~30 million users or 10%.



    Which again only matters if you can prove that decriminalization or legalization increases the number of users, an argument for which there is no real basis. I think the real concern is keeping it out of the hands of kids and young people, for which there is no good solution, aside from education and parenting.
    Got my numbers from here Link

    In 2013, an estimated 24.6 million Americans aged 12 or older—9.4 percent of the population—had used an illicit drug in the past month. This number is up from 8.3 percent in 2002. The increase mostly reflects a recent rise in use of marijuana, the most commonly used illicit drug.
    Being the USA I had to subtract weed users to get a "real" number for baddie drug users

    Marijuana use has increased since 2007. In 2013, there were 19.8 million current users—about 7.5 percent of people aged 12 or older—up from 14.5 million (5.8 percent) in 2007.
    24.6 - 19.8 = 4.8 million drug users excluding pot users. Maybe some pot users also use hard drugs but not most of them, I would wager very few of them. Hard to get accurate numbers out of the USA for the hard shit as they count pot as a naughty naughty life ruining drug too.

    I don't think the goal of the UNODC is to satisfy libertarians and make us all free to do what we want but rather to reduce harm and unnecessary prosecutions. Decriminalization can do exactly that. There is no basis, honestly, to predict the results of legalization as no one has ever done it.

    I'm not saying that usage will increase, I think that it will decrease with decriminalization. I was more addressing the "let people do whatever they want" libertarian crowd by pointing out that illicit drugs are far more dangerous than currently legal substances (that are available without prescription) on a per user basis. Legalizing them would be a dumb thing to do which is why the most liberal drug countries like the Netherlands and Portugal haven't. They decriminalized it. The legalization proponents are using decriminalization stats to make their claim. Truth is nobody knows what would happen if all drugs were legalized as nobody has done it. I just can't see any good coming from it.

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    Fair point, I agree that decriminalization of illicit drugs must happen first before any talk of legalization (except for weed, where we have empirical proof of net benefits from legalization.)

    Edit: on second thought, that is wrong and I take it back. I support full legalization of all drugs.
    Last edited by 01RedDX; 10-23-2015 at 10:54 AM.

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    Originally posted by sabad66
    I agree with the view that all drugs (yes, including "hard" drugs&quot should be legal. Almost all of the negatives around drugs are actually a consequence of them being illegal. For example:
    - criminals getting rich and not paying taxes
    - violence due to above.. take away their money and gangs will be no more
    - people don't know the long term effects because researchers aren't allowed to study them
    - overdoses due to inconsistent purity and/or cutting agents
    - addictions because people are too afraid/embarrassed to get help before its too late
    - people that could have turned out to be successful members of society having their lives ruined with a criminal record over a non-violent "crime"
    - families destroyed/shamed because someone is in jail

    Besides all the above problems, the #1 reason IMO is basic freedom. Why should anyone/government dictate what a free person can/can't put in their own body? I personally don't have any desire to snort coke or smoke meth or inject heroin, but if someone else wants to do it safely on their own without harming anyone else and with their own money then by all means go ahead. They are going to find a way to do it anyways, so why should they have to go buy something on the street from a criminal to do this instead of paying a legit business that can guarantee purity and pay taxes?

    Just look at all the recent fentanyl deaths and all of the people dying of overdoses at raves/festivals. These are real people that are brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, parents to someone. Most of them dead because some criminal somewhere along the line lied about what they were selling.

    I think society will eventually get to the point of full legalization, but not for at least another 40 years. Decriminalization is a good first step though... at least it solves some of the issues above

    sorry for what seems like a Seth/Toma type rant... I have a few family members/friends (mostly in the US) that have been thrown in jail/overdosed so I have thought this through a few times
    Agreed on all aspects, and I'll take my reference as a compliment

    Decriminalize, legalize, fukasize, IT DOESN"T MATTER.

    What matters is, others force their will on others. It's the most despicable emotional trait, and it's rampant (especially in religion).

    I'm surprised that stupid fuck Duaner hasn't posted yet. Oh well, he's probably still trying to wake up from his ass kicking in the right to die thread.

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    Originally posted by 01RedDX
    "Alcohol not so bad in comparison to meth." I guess you could try to go with that unless you actually look at the data:

    How smug. A simple "look" at the data may not do the exercise justice.

    Given that Alcholol is legal (Widespread usage), and Meth is illegal (Limited usage), these stats are an apples-to-oranges comparison.

    If meth were legalized, these numbers would shift drastically.

    While this is useful data, this matter would be better explored with an inventory of outcomes based on an equal number of addicts for both drugs.

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    Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow


    How smug. A simple "look" at the data may not do the exercise justice.

    Given that Alcholol is legal (Widespread usage), and Meth is illegal (Limited usage), these stats are an apples-to-oranges comparison.

    If meth were legalized, these numbers would shift drastically.

    While this is useful data, this matter would be better explored with an inventory of outcomes based on an equal number of addicts for both drugs.
    Why would it shift?

    You think non-users would all of a sudden become users?

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    Originally posted by Seth1968
    Oh well, he's probably still trying to wake up from his ass kicking in the right to die thread.
    Link me?

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    Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
    How smug.
    Said Robin, smugly.


    Originally posted by 89coupe


    Why would it shift?

    You think non-users would all of a sudden become users?
    Are you kidding? Can't wait for legalization so I can bust meth rails every day.

    That's why I drink myself into a stupor every night, because it's legal.

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    Fuck yea, meth party at reddx's house! Who's in? People don't abstain from meth because it's illegal.
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    Originally posted by 89coupe


    Why would it shift?

    You think non-users would all of a sudden become users?
    Don't see why its outside the realm of possibility. Bar stars have a legal methamphetamine perk-me-up before partying. I remember the ADD kids would sell their ritalin all the time in high school to kids that would never even have the connections to score meth. There is a market for stimulants.

    I guess as an aside there could be some advantages. Uber drivers could get the benefit of an obsessively cleaned and organized back seat instead of a passed out bar star with shit running down their legs and onto his seats.

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    I don't think a lot would change if everything was legal. Everyone isn't going to rush out to try all the ultra-hard drugs just because they are legal.

    The reason most people don't do hard drugs is because it ruins your life and that of everyone close to you, not because it's illegal. All the people who want to do those drugs do them anyway already. Nobody is sitting around waiting for it to become legal, so they can finally start that meth habit they have been dreaming about. I think the number of hard drug users would remain largely the same if it were legal. If it were legalized but extremely expensive, then perhaps there would still be a large market for illegal drugs, but "street" prices would likely be nowhere near what they are now.

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    Originally posted by frizzlefry


    Don't see why its outside the realm of possibility. Bar stars have a legal methamphetamine perk-me-up before partying. I remember the ADD kids would sell their ritalin all the time in high school to kids that would never even have the connections to score meth. There is a market for stimulants.

    I guess as an aside there could be some advantages. Uber drivers could get the benefit of an obsessively cleaned and organized back seat instead of a passed out bar star with shit running down their legs and onto his seats.
    It isn't out of the realm of possibility but realistically, the possibility of someone doing those kinds of drugs based on legality alone are very low. Although this is a less extreme case - Marijuana, mushrooms and probably other psychedelics are legal in The Netherlands, but very few locals indulge in such. Just because it's there and readily available doesn't automatically entice anyone to do anything.

    People who resort to drugs like Meth, Cocaine, Heroine etc are going to do so whether it's legal or not. It's not a matter of legality, it's a matter of choice. People who do want to do it, will do it.

    IMO, I don't know anyone going "Oh damn, I wish Meth was legal, I could use a hit right now" or "I would totally get into Meth if it were legal". Your logic is flawed there. I could even go back to the Forbidden Fruit Theory and supply/demand of the idea of wanting to have something you cannot get. If it's there, in this case, if Meth is legal, most people won't go out of their way to try it.
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