Pedestrians and crosswalks (Matt from beyond on AM770)

[speedog]

Not sure how long Matt from beyond has been on AM770 on Monday afternoons but I usually manage to catch his little session.

Today's was an interesting one including a small segment regarding pedestrians and crosswalks and his statement was an interesting interpretation of Alberta's TSA in that he said that you, as a motorist, only have to yield to a pedestrian as long as they are in your path. He said once the pedestrian has cleared your lane then you're good to go.

Now I know we've beat this whole pedestrian crosswalk thing to death and back again and for the life of me, I just can not remember if any consensus was reached regarding this issue,. I can't even recall if we had our resident police officer chime in on this one.

So was Matt's statement accurate or not?

[Thaco]

AFAIK you're not "allowed" to move until the ped has mounted the curb

[FraserB]

My understanding is that he is correct, additionally I believe you can't get ticketed for failure to yield if you don't yield to a mounted cyclist in a crosswalk as they are not a pedestrian.

[FixedGear]

Ask snowcat

[Thaco]

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...an-safety.aspx

Tips for Motorists
Wait until the pedestrian has completely cleared the intersection before proceeding.

[know1edge]

.

[Mibz]

TSA: http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/T06.pdf
Use of Highway and Rules of the Road: http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Regs/2002_304.pdf

Yielding to pedestrians
Yielding to pedestrians
41(1) A person driving a vehicle shall yield the right of way to a
pedestrian crossing the roadway within a crosswalk.
(2) Where a vehicle is stopped at a crosswalk to permit a
pedestrian to cross the roadway, a person driving any other vehicle
that is approaching the stopped vehicle from the rear shall not
overtake and pass the stopped vehicle.
(3) At any place on a roadway other than at a crosswalk, a person
driving a vehicle has the right of way over pedestrians unless
otherwise directed by a peace officer or a traffic control device.
(4) Nothing in subsection (3) relieves a person driving a vehicle
from the duty of exercising due care for the safety of pedestrians.

There is absolutely nothing in the TSA or Use of Highway and Rules of the Road Regulations which states that you must wait for a pedestrian to completely cross. All it states is that you must yield the right of way, just as you would for any other vehicle which has the right of way. Obviously I'm not saying you should be buzzing pedestrians (Like it mentions in 41(4)), but you don't need to be waiting the whole time either.

Now, one caveat that I didn't get to mention on the show. Per 41(2), if there is somebody already stopped for a pedestrian, you can't pass that person. I take this to mean that you can approach the crosswalk, stop and make sure there's nobody to yield to, and then proceed safely, but that's a guess and I won't stand behind it like the things I said on the radio.

One other thing to keep in mind is that police are interpreting the laws the same way I am. They just write tickets if they interpret somebody breaking the law. They don't get the final say though, traffic court does. Just because a police officer tells you something is illegal, or somebody tells you that they received a ticket for something, doesn't necessarily mean a judge (or whatever they call themselves in traffic court) agrees. This is why you fight tickets that you truly believe to be illegitimate.

Lastly, if you didn't catch the bit today, I emphasize over and over that it doesn't matter if something is legal; if you do it unsafely, you're a fuck and you can be ticketed. Don't be that guy who does something he knows was wrong and try to hide behind the letter of the law. Also don't think that just because something is legal means it's the best way of doing things. For example, from all the research I did, I'm pretty sure you're allowed to pass people in residential areas as long as you don't speed. There are two reasons I didn't bring it up:
1. I didn't have enough time to confirm it and I didn't want to say something that I wasn't 100% confident in.
2. Can you fucking imagine?

EDIT: Thanks speedog for being polite. I've been seriously nervous ever since recording that bit. I knew there'd be some discussion, I'm just glad it opened up nicely and not with a "This guy doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about". I'd be ridiculously embarrassed if I got something wrong, but I'm willing to own it if I am.

EDIT 2: On the flip side, just because something is illegal, doesn't necessarily mean it's dangerous. It probably means too many people did it dangerously and tried to hide behind the law, so the law was changed :P

[Sugarphreak]

....

[rage2]

What Matt missed is that there's also a Calgary bylaw for yielding to pedestrians worth $500. Specifically, 41.1(3)

https://www.calgary.ca/CA/city-clerk...f?noredirect=1

41.1 (1) The Traffic Engineer may designate crosswalks upon which a person may ride a bicycle to cross the roadway.
(2) Where the Traffic Engineer has designated a crosswalk pursuant to subsection (1), any crosswalk so designated shall be known as a “multi-use crossing”. The Traffic Engineer shall indicate the multi-use crossing by the placement of such traffic control devices as the Traffic Engineer deems necessary.
(3) A person operating a vehicle on a roadway must yield the right of way to: (a) a pedestrian; and (b) a person riding a bicycle;
who is crossing the roadway within a multi-use crossing.

Absolutely nothing about pedestrians clearing intersections. You're just supposed to yield. If they've cleared your lane, there is no yielding as they're walking away from you.

As for speedog's question on how the old arguments ended up, check this:

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?threadid=208124

Even the cops (DayGlow) says you can go without waiting them to get on the curb.

[rage2]

Btw if there's a specific topic you would like us to talk about, feel free to post it up and we'll see what we can do.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[beyond_ban]

For some reason i always thought the person crossing had to reach either the median (if it exists) or the other sides curb. This is a very tiresome practice in residential areas where some people take a solid 30 seconds to cross. Thank for the good news!

[D'z Nutz]

Originally posted by rage2
Btw if there's a specific topic you would like us to talk about, feel free to post it up and we'll see what we can do.

Topics that come up here once in a while:

"Slower Traffic Keep Right", particularly if I'm already in the left lane and I am driving faster than the flow of traffic, but some jackass in a Dodge Ram is riding my ass because he wants to exceed the speed light by 50KM/H, am I obligated to keep right and let him pass?

Clarity on where you can do U-turns.

And of course, the ever popular changing lanes at an intersection hahaha! That actually probably wouldn't be a good idea for this same reason:

Originally posted by Mibz
2. Can you fucking imagine?

[firebane]

A guy at work just received a $800 fine in regards to a situation regarding this.

I myself have always been under the impression that as long as the pedestrian has crossed your path you are allowed to go. According to the police officer who gave him the ticket said otherwise.

From what my co-worker said it was a 4 lane one way street and he was approaching a red light. He was in the right curb lane and stopped at the light as the pedestrian stepped foot into the cross walk. The pedestrian was STILL 3 lanes over and my co-worker decided to go and got caught and was fined.

The police officers justification was that anytime a pedestrian is in a crosswalk no matter if they have passed or not you are not allowed to go because said pedestrian could change their mind and cut back across in front of you. If you do not see this you can then obviously hit the pedestrian.

Myself I have thought for years that as long as the pedestrian has walked in front of you and is clear you are good to go. So I think there maybe some misunderstanding of the law/bylaw and or some different interpretations depending on who you are.

This is one of those things that is making dashcams a HUGE investment.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by rage2
Btw if there's a specific topic you would like us to talk about, feel free to post it up and we'll see what we can do.

How about the deployment of photo radar as a safety tool when its placed in a 80 zone , 150 meters before that of a 110 km/h zone on highway 1 west and 2 south..

[you&me]

Originally posted by firebane
A guy at work just received a $800 fine in regards to a situation regarding this.

I myself have always been under the impression that as long as the pedestrian has crossed your path you are allowed to go. According to the police officer who gave him the ticket said otherwise.

From what my co-worker said it was a 4 lane one way street and he was approaching a red light. He was in the right curb lane and stopped at the light as the pedestrian stepped foot into the cross walk. The pedestrian was STILL 3 lanes over and my co-worker decided to go and got caught and was fined.

The police officers justification was that anytime a pedestrian is in a crosswalk no matter if they have passed or not you are not allowed to go because said pedestrian could change their mind and cut back across in front of you. If you do not see this you can then obviously hit the pedestrian.

Myself I have thought for years that as long as the pedestrian has walked in front of you and is clear you are good to go. So I think there maybe some misunderstanding of the law/bylaw and or some different interpretations depending on who you are.

This is one of those things that is making dashcams a HUGE investment.

I think this part of Mibz' post addresses your coworker's situation:

Originally posted by Mibz


One other thing to keep in mind is that police are interpreting the laws the same way I am. They just write tickets if they interpret somebody breaking the law. They don't get the final say though, traffic court does. Just because a police officer tells you something is illegal, or somebody tells you that they received a ticket for something, doesn't necessarily mean a judge (or whatever they call themselves in traffic court) agrees. This is why you fight tickets that you truly believe to be illegitimate.

The police aren't infallible and sometimes misinterpret the law. In these cases, it's up to the citizen to challenge the incorrect interpretation in court.

That said, if the law is to "yield to a pedestrian" in a crosswalk, I would take that to mean "not impede" the pedestrian, as-in wait until they've passed the path (/lane) of your vehicle...

[killramos]

Is there anywhere we can go to listen to AM770 after the fact?

Pretty cool that Matt is able to do this on there.

[jwslam]

Originally posted by D'z Nutz
"Slower Traffic Keep Right", particularly if I'm already in the left lane and I am driving faster than the flow of traffic, but some jackass in a Dodge Ram is riding my ass because he wants to exceed the speed light by 50KM/H, am I obligated to keep right and let him pass?

No laws against it but all of beyond thinks you're a prick.
http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/be-safe-...hreadid=200904
http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/does-qei...=left+lane+hog
http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/we-need-...hreadid=275637
http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/quotleft...hreadid=366950

[rage2]

Originally posted by killramos
Is there anywhere we can go to listen to AM770 after the fact?

Pretty cool that Matt is able to do this on there.

http://www.newstalk770.com/audio-on-demand-2/

Every Monday at 4:45pm. Matt's been doing most of them but I've covered for him a few times. We've been on there since the summer.

[killramos]

huh. cool. I will admit i never listen to the radio but i might tune in to support a beyonder.