Anyone here know this POS....Addison Hartzler?

[colinxx235]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
Once you pull a knife on someone you just set yourself up for justifying the attacker in killing you. At that point in time you have pulled out a lethal weapon and it's now justifiable to retaliate in kind. Pretty sure that's why this dunce only got 16 months.

So two guys decide they are going to assault you for no reason and if you carry a utility blade and pull it out in hopes that maybe they will leave you alone they are now justified in killing you.... really....

[speedog]

Originally posted by colinxx235



So two guys decide they are going to assault you for no reason and if you carry a utility blade and pull it out in hopes that maybe they will leave you alone they are now justified in killing you.... really....

Must be like that new math that is being taught these days.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by colinxx235



So two guys decide they are going to assault you for no reason and if you carry a utility blade and pull it out in hopes that maybe they will leave you alone they are now justified in killing you.... really....

Legally once you pull out a knife you just escalated the incident from punches to deadly weapons. In Canada it's your responsibility not to escalate the situation. Pulling a knife puts him somewhat to blame in the eyes of the law. It's the equivalent of someone coming up to you and slapping you. You then proceed to pull out a knife and stab them. Do you think that is reasonable? I guarantee you're going to get charged with assault with a deadly weapon and end up in court over it. You might be found innocent if the judge deems there was reasonable self defense grounds but you also might be found guilty.

[Gman.45]

It wasn't just a "slap" though. It was an attack by 2 guys, both larger than the victim by the looks of it. They also uttered threats, both vs the victim and his girlfriend, saying that after they finished him off they were going to rape his GF.

Sorry, but at that point the victim is well within his rights, IN CANADA, to say that he is in fear for his life, and for that of his GF. Using a weapon vs TWO attackers who are intent on harming you and a female with you is well within the force continuum. Would a police officer who was alone and attacked by 2 larger opponents who were threatening to harm/kill him verbally as well not at the very, very, very least use his aerosol weapon, or his baton? Maybe even his sidearm? I'm sure there are examples of this happening in Canada between L/E when outnumbered by unarmed opponents, kicking it up the force continuum and using weapons. So, why can't a civilian?

I can't believe people think that when a person is attacked, for NO reason, especially by greater numbers, that if they use a weapon to increase their odds of survival, while defending themselves, which is as per the L/E force continuum, that somehow THEY are now the criminal.



Also, that mother jones report is a joke, there are just as many articles online refuting that information as there are from the other side. "The difference is an officer will shoot, and a civilian won't".?!?! Ridiculous.

[mazdavirgin]

Please refer to case law on the topic. You're talking out of your hat and forgetting that carrying and using a knife as a weapon is a federal offense in the first place even if used for self defense. We can argue that the law is wrong or unfair but it is what it is no matter what people would like to believe.

I am in no way shape or form excusing these scum bags but the victim did himself no favors in all likelihood by pulling a knife on them. It's quite clear the victim escalated the encounter since he pulled the weapon on two attackers who had no weapons and he did not attempt to leave the scene.

It's different for a LEO where they have the right to carry weapons and the second someone gets close to them in a fight they can make the reasonable argument that they feared the attacker was going to steal their weapon. Even then the said LEO is in all likelihood going to be charge and tried in court.

Self-defence against unprovoked assault

34. (1) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself.

Extent of justification

(2) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted and who causes death or grievous bodily harm in repelling the assault is justified if

(a) he causes it under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm from the violence with which the assault was originally made or with which the assailant pursues his purposes; and

(b) he believes, on reasonable grounds, that he cannot otherwise preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm.

Preventing assault

37. (1) Every one is justified in using force to defend himself or any one under his protection from assault, if he uses no more force than is necessary to prevent the assault or the repetition of it.

Extent of justification

(2) Nothing in this section shall be deemed to justify the wilful infliction of any hurt or mischief that is excessive, having regard to the nature of the assault that the force used was intended to prevent.

Pulling a knife is considered something intended to cause death so you're really not doing yourself any favors and the burden of proof is quite high when it comes to saying you feared for your life. Someone simply threatening you verbally punching you or kicking you a few times will not stand up in court as fearing for your life and again there is ample case law on the topic.

[Env-Consultant]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
Please refer to case law on the topic. You're talking out of your hat and forgetting that carrying and using a knife as a weapon is a federal offense in the first place even if used for self defense. We can argue that the law is wrong or unfair but it is what it is no matter what people would like to believe.

I am in no way shape or form excusing these scum bags but the victim did himself no favors in all likelihood by pulling a knife on them. It's quite clear the victim escalated the encounter since he pulled the weapon on two attackers who had no weapons and he did not attempt to leave the scene.

It's different for a LEO where they have the right to carry weapons and the second someone gets close to them in a fight they can make the reasonable argument that they feared the attacker was going to steal their weapon. Even then the said LEO is in all likelihood going to be charge and tried in court.



Pulling a knife is considered something intended to cause death so you're really not doing yourself any favors and the burden of proof is quite high when it comes to saying you feared for your life. Someone simply threatening you verbally punching you or kicking you a few times will not stand up in court as fearing for your life and again there is ample case law on the topic.

^

[M.alex]

Originally posted by Gman.45

Sorry, but at that point the victim is well within his rights, IN CANADA, to say that he is in fear for his life, and for that of his GF. Using a weapon vs TWO attackers who are intent on harming you and a female with you is well within the force continuum.

This isn't the US; do you even C-a-n-a-d-a?

[cancer man]

Better to kill one than be carried by six.
He who looks for trouble will find it.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by colinxx235

So two guys decide they are going to assault you for no reason and if you carry a utility blade and pull it out in hopes that maybe they will leave you alone they are now justified in killing you.... really....

NEVER pull a weapon unless your attacker has one (or something equivalent) and is intending to use it. Run away, leave the scene, go back in the club, whatever.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Khyron


NEVER pull a weapon unless your attacker has one (or something equivalent) and is intending to use it. Run away, leave the scene, go back in the club, whatever.

By the looks of the surveillance footage, those options really didn't appear to be viable alternatives and please note that I'm not necessarily condone the use of a knife in that situation but if you had one on you (I never do) and felt you were in real danger (which he probably did for his girlfriend and himself), most normal people would probably pull out the knife.

A couple of guys obviously bigger than you really threatening you, put it this way if you had no knife and noticed a tire iron that happened to be laying on the concrete beside you, would you pick up the tire iron? I sure as hell would and I wouldn't be thinking about what the laws might be - my safety and those with me would be paramount, natural survival instincts usually start kicking in for most people.

[civic_stylez]

Originally posted by speedog

By the looks of the surveillance footage, those options really didn't appear to be viable alternatives and please note that I'm not necessarily condone the use of a knife in that situation but if you had one on you (I never do) and felt you were in real danger (which he probably did for his girlfriend and himself), most normal people would probably pull out the knife.

A couple of guys obviously bigger than you really threatening you, put it this way if you had no knife and noticed a tire iron that happened to be laying on the concrete beside you, would you pick up the tire iron? I sure as hell would and I wouldn't be thinking about what the laws might be - my safety and those with me would be paramount, natural survival instincts usually start kicking in for most people.

100%... as I said in an earlier post. If i feel im about to be seriously hurt im not stopping to consider the Alberta Criminal Code. People always sit there and look at logic.."cops should aim for the leg, you should consider reasonable force"... if some shitbag is about to stomp on my head and I have my knife/tire iron/golf club/bat im using it and im not thinking twice about it.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by speedog

By the looks of the surveillance footage, those options really didn't appear to be viable alternatives and please note that I'm not necessarily condone the use of a knife in that situation but if you had one on you (I never do) and felt you were in real danger (which he probably did for his girlfriend and himself), most normal people would probably pull out the knife.

A couple of guys obviously bigger than you really threatening you, put it this way if you had no knife and noticed a tire iron that happened to be laying on the concrete beside you, would you pick up the tire iron? I sure as hell would and I wouldn't be thinking about what the laws might be - my safety and those with me would be paramount, natural survival instincts usually start kicking in for most people.

And that's what gets people killed instead of just punched.

A knife or a gun is not a tool to threaten with - that just gives the attacker time to adjust and escalate themselves. If you are being attacked such that you believe you need to use lethal force, you don't show it to them you pull it as you're stabbing/slashing them. Same with a gun - you never draw to wave it in their face - you draw to shoot. If you don't actually intend to slit his throat open then you're obviously not feeling your life is in danger. Don't pull it out you'll just make things worse (like maybe get your girlfriend stabbed too).

[speedog]

Originally posted by Khyron


And that's what gets people killed instead of just punched.

A knife or a gun is not a tool to threaten with - that just gives the attacker time to adjust and escalate themselves. If you are being attacked such that you believe you need to use lethal force, you don't show it to them you pull it as you're stabbing/slashing them. Same with a gun - you never draw to wave it in their face - you draw to shoot. If you don't actually intend to slit his throat open then you're obviously not feeling your life is in danger. Don't pull it out you'll just make things worse (like maybe get your girlfriend stabbed too).

Most of us also haven't had kind of self defense training that involves using weapons and as such, I would suspect most people's first reaction would be to threaten with a weapon as opposed to what you're saying.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by speedog

Most of us also haven't had kind of self defense training that involves using weapons and as such, I would suspect most people's first reaction would be to threaten with a weapon as opposed to what you're saying.

Right which is why I'm saying it's stupid to even carry one if you haven't been trained/prepared to use it. It will only make things WORSE.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Khyron


Right which is why I'm saying it's stupid to even carry one if you haven't been trained/prepared to use it. It will only make things WORSE.

Well, I have to agree with you on that but if a tire iron was nearby that you could grab, then who knows what. Humans will often act quite differently when their natural survival instincts kick in.

[Type_S1]

Resurrection.

This wonderful member of society has died “in custody of the RCMP”. Looks like he didn’t quite clean up his act after the sentence…

[ianmcc]

Link?

[CompletelyNumb]

So many old alts in this thread.

[zipdoa]

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Link?

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So many old alts in this thread.

Hahaha the InRich posts killed me.

[Khyron]

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So many old alts in this thread.

I did appreciate the follow-up!