Canadian Air Strikes Against Syria/Iraq End

[Feruk]

About time. Finally a Prime Minister does something intelligent on foreign policy.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35526255

[jutes]

Originally posted by Feruk
About time. Finally a Prime Minister does something intelligent on foreign policy.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35526255

We will still be targetting ISIL from the air and providing "training" aka JTF2 special ops on the ground. While I agree that our fighters serve no real purpose as air assets are plentiful, we are actually putting more of our troops in danger being on the ground. We are moving away from bombing to letting other countries bomb with the targets we provide. If anything our involvement is more dangerous and lethal now.

[Vagabond142]

Best quote from the entire article, imho:

"Call us old-fashioned, but we think that we ought to avoid doing precisely what our enemies want us to do. They want us to elevate them, to give in to fear, to indulge in hatred, to eye one another with suspicion and to take leave of our faculties," he said.

[rx7_turbo2]

Awesome, now we're safe............Right?

[suntan]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
Best quote from the entire article, imho:

None of those things are happening though. Also military engagement hasn't ended... so...

As it is thousands of Muslims are being killed by ISIS. I guess that's okay though.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by jutes
We will still be targetting ISIL from the air and providing "training" aka JTF2 special ops on the ground. While I agree that our fighters serve no real purpose as air assets are plentiful, we are actually putting more of our troops in danger being on the ground. We are moving away from bombing to letting other countries bomb with the targets we provide. If anything our involvement is more dangerous and lethal now.

I agree with your point, but I think at least now we might be doing something more useful on the ground training locals. At the very least, we're not adding to the unnecessary collateral damage.

Originally posted by suntan
As it is thousands of Muslims are being killed by ISIS. I guess that's okay though.

Canadian bombing (or for that matter NATO bombing) has done nothing to decrease the thousands of Muslims killed. We've likely just added to it. Wanna stop IS? Back Assad like the Russians are... so he can go back to killing thousands of Muslims.

[oster]

Millions are fleeing the country, but we want to go in, show them how to shoot a gun and convince them to put their lives on the line? Not likely.

Didnt the americans try this already?

[Feruk]

Just gotta find the right sympathetic ally. Russia has Assad and it seems to be working. As for US/Canada, the best strategy would be to leave the area and never look back. However, I doubt you could sell that to the public and our allies. So might as well pretend we're "helping" by "training the locals."

[btimbit]

Originally posted by oster
Millions are fleeing the country, but we want to go in, show them how to shoot a gun and convince them to put their lives on the line? Not likely.

Didnt the americans try this already?

They also pretty much stopped doing this because they realized it doesn't work.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by Feruk
As for US/Canada, the best strategy would be to leave the area and never look back.

However, I doubt you could sell that to the public and our allies. So might as well pretend we're "helping" by "training the locals."

To the first part, our best strategy would be to have not gotten involved in the first place (except on the refugee front, imo) and let the region sort it out. But you're right... we're involved now so we have to continue to be so for diplomatic reasons. Plus, we're already more of a target for terrorism now that we've gotten involved, so we might as well play it out.

To your second part though, I disagree. We are supplying non-combat aircraft, providing intelligence, counter-terrorism programs, military training, humanitarian aid, and helping Arab nations with the refugees (and helping refugees of our own).

In my opinion, these are not token offerings, and they all combine to helping people who need it, and strengthening the local's abilities to fight off ISIS themselves... the way it should have been in the first place. ISIS will not be defeated by air strikes; they can only be quelled by boots on the ground, and none of our allies are too keen on supplying that. (Nor should they be). So the only way to this is to do exactly what Canada is now doing.

Not only that, but mark my words: ISIS will continue to exist in some capacity in 20 years. Maybe 50. Maybe 100. We've seen what happens with insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan - they take generations to end, so while mass military strength like bombing does help the battle, it will never win the war.

So with that in mind, I'm quite happy that we're tripling our training to those who will produce offspring, and have the ability to fight this over the generations it will require. Then hopefully, the Liberals will do a good job with the country and in turn Canadians will continue to vote for them, and they will continue to try to keep Canada's nose out of businesses in which we should not be involved.

[l/l/rX]

My 0.02, While Canada has been involved in the conflicts in the M.E. over the last ~13 years, we have only ever played a supporting role vs being the ones to provoke war. I believe we can play a peace keeping role, provide aid and training, which in my opinion will still satisfy our allies, as well as keeping Canada off the radar for any future terrorist attacks. We're so gung-ho on destroying each other, someone needs to set an example. I support this, even though I did not vote for him and disagree with his other policies. I am an infantry reservist, but I do not see violence as the solution to all things, however I will fight when absolutely necessary.

My friend in the regular army has been posting and liking a ton of political cartoons that depicts Canada as a bunch of pussies for not backing up our allies, i whole heartedly disagree with that, his mentality is fight violence with more violence, that's how you solve problems. I asked him yesterday, did you ever think about why these current wars are happening and who started them?

[403Gemini]

Originally posted by l/l/rX

My friend in the regular army has been posting and liking a ton of political cartoons that depicts Canada as a bunch of pussies for not backing up our allies, i whole heartedly disagree with that, his mentality is fight violence with more violence, that's how you solve problems. I asked him yesterday, did you ever think about why these current wars are happening and who started them?

Does he comment to you on how you should do your job?

You probably have no idea what he has done, or what he has seen.

ISIS members, literally - LITERALLY - think they are ushering in the end of the world. This is their belief, and they won't stop. Should we have , from the beginning, just turned a blind eye to them going into mosques and recruiting people , and those that don't join get murdered?

How about them destroying artifacts of our history as humans? Ignore that. Gotcha

How about them throwing kids off of roof tops just because of who their parents are? Ignore it.

This is an enemy that won't go away because you aren't giving them attention. These aren't just bullies on a playground looking for attention. The more they get ignored, the stronger they are becoming. They are steam rolling military bases and getting more and more weaponry. Just in November, Canadian soldiers fended off a camp that they were helping train in. Likely if our soldiers weren't there, it would have been overrun.

Further to training and GTFO mentality, this has never, ever worked. Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. - they are all severely unstable areas where we tried to train them and leave them - it simply didn't work. In fact America created the taliban by training them and supplying them with arms in the 80's against the Soviets.

We are faced with genocidal maniacs , and if this isn't worth helping to defend innocent people from - what engagement is? Should the world turned it's back and ignored the Nazis?

Isolating ourselves and saying "not our problem until they're at our front door" is like saying you wouldn't help a neighbour if you saw somebody breaking into their home - afterall, it's not your property, so not your problem?

The world has the resources to combat these assholes, but everybody is scared to step on peoples toes to get it done. Is backing Assad the right move? I dont know, i feel like that's making a deal with the devil.

This entire situation is just fucked up, but us showing up to hand out water bottles and offer training has never worked.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by 403Gemini
Does he comment to you on how you should do your job?

You probably have no idea what he has done, or what he has seen.

Wait, so a grunt commenting on the Prime Minister's job is OK, but a civilian commenting on a grunt's opinion of the Prime Minister's job isn't?

Originally posted by 403Gemini
Should we have , from the beginning, just turned a blind eye to them going into mosques and recruiting people , and those that don't join get murdered?

How about them destroying artifacts of our history as humans? Ignore that. Gotcha

How about them throwing kids off of roof tops just because of who their parents are? Ignore it.

Yes, yes, and yes. We ignore it just about everywhere else in the world, so why not the Middle East?

Originally posted by 403Gemini
The more they get ignored, the stronger they are becoming.

This statement shows your complete lack of understanding the situation. Our INVOLVEMENT is by far the BIGGEST piece of recruitment propaganda imaginable. Allows them to portray the whole conflict as "the West vs Muslims." Every documentary from the region I've ever seen has had the same conclusion from locals: the air campaign drives them toward IS. Every bomb a NATO plane drops increases IS recruitment.

Originally posted by 403Gemini
Further to training and GTFO mentality, this has never, ever worked. Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. - they are all severely unstable areas where we tried to train them and leave them - it simply didn't work. In fact America created the taliban by training them and supplying them with arms in the 80's against the Soviets.

Haha, America training and arming the Taliban is a PERFECT example of "training and GTFO" working. I will agree it's hopeless here though.

Originally posted by 403Gemini
We are faced with genocidal maniacs

You have no idea what "genocide" means. Most overused word by people who don't bother reading the definition.

Originally posted by 403Gemini
Isolating ourselves and saying "not our problem until they're at our front door" is like saying you wouldn't help a neighbour if you saw somebody breaking into their home - afterall, it's not your property, so not your problem?

The world has the resources to combat these assholes, but everybody is scared to step on peoples toes to get it done. Is backing Assad the right move? I dont know, i feel like that's making a deal with the devil.

Actually, almost all THER neighbors have decided to sit there and do practically nothing. I don't see a single Sunni army deployed fighting IS. Only NATO is stupid enough to get involved in yet another unending conflict that they just can't win.

[01RedDX]

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[sabad66]

Originally posted by Feruk

Wait, so a grunt commenting on the Prime Minister's job is OK, but a civilian commenting on a grunt's opinion of the Prime Minister's job isn't?


Yes, yes, and yes. We ignore it just about everywhere else in the world, so why not the Middle East?


This statement shows your complete lack of understanding the situation. Our INVOLVEMENT is by far the BIGGEST piece of recruitment propaganda imaginable. Allows them to portray the whole conflict as "the West vs Muslims." Every documentary from the region I've ever seen has had the same conclusion from locals: the air campaign drives them toward IS. Every bomb a NATO plane drops increases IS recruitment.


Haha, America training and arming the Taliban is a PERFECT example of "training and GTFO" working. I will agree it's hopeless here though.


You have no idea what "genocide" means. Most overused word by people who don't bother reading the definition.


Actually, almost all THER neighbors have decided to sit there and do practically nothing. I don't see a single Sunni army deployed fighting IS. Only NATO is stupid enough to get involved in yet another unending conflict that they just can't win.

[403Gemini]

Originally posted by Feruk

Wait, so a grunt commenting on the Prime Minister's job is OK, but a civilian commenting on a grunt's opinion of the Prime Minister's job isn't?

Honestly, anybody who gets to vote gets to comment on the politician

Originally posted by Feruk

Yes, yes, and yes. We ignore it just about everywhere else in the world, so why not the Middle East?

This statement shows your complete lack of understanding the situation. Our INVOLVEMENT is by far the BIGGEST piece of recruitment propaganda imaginable. Allows them to portray the whole conflict as "the West vs Muslims." Every documentary from the region I've ever seen has had the same conclusion from locals: the air campaign drives them toward IS. Every bomb a NATO plane drops increases IS recruitment.

Just seems like an illogical solution to stand by and do nothing when we are perfectly capable of assisting.

The problem with this part of the world is we are dealing with people with a civilized mindset that is 1000 years old.

To ACTUALLY help, you'd need to stabilize the region with military, and then educate and HELP them with aid such as doctors & teachers to integrate them.

Letting ISIS fester to it's own devices is , to me, like leaving cancer alone in your body and thinking "bah, it'll just go away" ... lets be real, it will only get worse. With their literal insane ideology and using the reasoning of "because man in sky" , I can't see them stopping without at least TRYING to achieve their goal - which is to procreate until their numbers increase and then start a war and kill any infidels that stand in their way to usher in the end of days.

Originally posted by Feruk

Haha, America training and arming the Taliban is a PERFECT example of "training and GTFO" working. I will agree it's hopeless here though.

I guess I should more specifically say Al-Qaeda vs Taliban , but America TRAINING them only made them more well armed & trained to fight against the US when the US supports Israel in more recent times.

It's honestly a miracle you still can see Rambo 3 on TV with how he was the savior to the Taliban / middle east fighting those dirty commie bastards.

Originally posted by Feruk


You have no idea what "genocide" means. Most overused word by people who don't bother reading the definition.

It's really not a difficult definition.

"gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/Submit
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation."

Right, so they want to kill anybody who stands in the way of their culture. They deem everybody else infidels and by their right, they should be allowed to stone, poison, kill, "destroy crops" , etc. everybody who isn't with them. If that doesn't sound like a mass killing for a large group of people, not sure what does

Originally posted by Feruk

Actually, almost all THER neighbors have decided to sit there and do practically nothing. I don't see a single Sunni army deployed fighting IS. Only NATO is stupid enough to get involved in yet another unending conflict that they just can't win.

Most Sunnis are Muslim, they too have radical groups - seems like they have their own issues.

Goes back to what I said earlier, you're dealing with a part of the world where they believe raping women is okay. Being homosexual will get you killed. Be-headings are a common occurrence.

When you see Asian countries that are flourishing, it's because they've adopted a lot of western norms as far as economics and education goes.

To me - again my opinion - this isn't a situation you half ass. You either all or none. It just doesn't seem right that we could do something about it, but choose not to. Instead we allow a group to hate western culture and are effectively declaring a war on anybody that isn't them , and people are suggesting to ignore it and it will go away?

Is bombing the shit out of their land a good idea? Fuck no, these asshole cowards are hiding in the civilians and it villainizes our actions. If we were to move in and actual liberate the country, there'd be a much larger impact with them.

At the end of the day , what do really any of us know how to fix it? I mean we complain about how slow our internet is on our smart phones and that's our heartache for the day

Like I said earlier, it's just a fucked up situation, and there is no real easy answer

Edit: Overall Feruk, good discussion, you do bring up good points

[jutes]

Originally posted by Feruk

I agree with your point, but I think at least now we might be doing something more useful on the ground training locals. At the very least, we're not adding to the unnecessary collateral damage.

Maybe not directly but we are providing targets for bombers to destroy. Doesn't matter if its our jets dropping the bombs or the USN. Just because we aren't at the pointy end anymore doesn't make it any less dangerous or "combat".

[01RedDX]

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[l/l/rX]

Originally posted by 403Gemini


Does he comment to you on how you should do your job?

You probably have no idea what he has done, or what he has seen.

He's never been deployed he's seen as much action as dressing up a target like a tali down range.

[403Gemini]

Originally posted by l/l/rX


He's never been deployed he's seen as much action as dressing up a target like a tali down range.

fair enough

BTW I saw your comment (pre edit ) about being in the reserves. Much respect