School me on winches - Questions about Boat Rails system

[ExtraSlow]

OK, I know there are a bunch of knowledgeable folks on here, and I'm a total neophyte on this topic. Here is the situation.

A family member has recently bought a property on a lake, and it's got a boat rail system to launch and retrieve his surf boat using a winch. Basically a boat trailer on a set of rails. I guess some folks call this a "marine railway".


All good, except the winch sounds grindy as fuck, and is really old, and if it required maintenance, I'm sure nobody did any.
This weekend, the winch cable balled up on the drum, which it has a tendency to do, and I guess he didn't notice, and the cable snapped.

So, let's play pretend, if money was no object, and low maintenance/fuss was the primary goal, what setup would YOU put in for an application where you have a) available 120V power, 2) 12V battery and battery charger, 3) solid anchor point mounted in concrete with 4-way roller fairlead. Boat and boat trailer weigh around 7000 lbs, but as it's up an incline, I'd guess actual load on the cable is maybe a third of that. Let's say 3000lbs tops.

Would you prefer synthetic rope or steel cable? Is a new winch the way to go? Is there a method to prevent the cable from balling up on the drum? Are cheapo winches as good as brands name ones? Where is good to buy cable/rope/winches? I know princess Auto carries them. And lastly, is there some maintenance he should be doing to his winch?

[lasimmon]

I wish my cabin had this set up haha. Looks awesome.

[ExtraSlow]

It's a pretty sick pad. But seriously, anyone know anything about winches? Sounds like he's just going to respool it with new steel cable for now. But who knows, he'll probably have to buy a new winch eventually.

Here's a question, would thinner cable spool easier and be less likely to bunch up? Wire rope is so strong, I'm sure he could get away with thinner without ever getting close to the capacity.

[asp integra]

Go with a boat lift instead, way easier and less headache than the rail system.

[ExtraSlow]

Ah, the rails are already in, and have been for a decade. Don't think anyone is swapping out for a lift at this point. Although, I have to say they do seem like a better system.

[ercchry]

I hope that's not an actual photo of the "surf boat" ...yikes

[Sugarphreak]

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[R154]

ya 425A @12v on a bank of 8D's with 2 float chargers would be horrendous. That is a ridiculous amount of amperage for a long duration.

Look at a shore power option @ 120V. You'd be way further ahead. Then you dont need to replace batteries or find a nema3r bat. charger or pull wire from your house out.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by R154
Look at a shore power option @ 120V. You'd be way further ahead. Then you dont need to replace batteries or find a nema3r bat. charger or pull wire from your house out.

If he's going down the AC route he would likely be better off going with a 240V winch.

[AndyL]

to be difficult...

hand winch.

Most of the cheaper electric ones - are not fail safe - if gear blows - boats going for a ride. At least the usual handcrank ones are (short of drum shearing). There's a few out there that use a nylon strap instead of cable, probably a good investment.

My .02

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by ercchry
I hope that's not an actual photo of the "surf boat" ...yikes

No, this is a photo I ripped from the net. Actual surf boat is an actual surf boat.

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
For winch cable, I am a huge fan of synthetic rope. It doesn't rust or kink, it is way lighter and easier to handle, plus it won't get spurs/jaggers that can cut into your hand if it frays. It also floats, which I could see being somewhat useful if you wanted to pull a boat in. The only maintenance you really need to do is wash it once in a while, and if it is in the water then that is already taken care of.

How is that synthetic with UV? This setup will spend a decent amount of time with the line played out, soaking in the sunshine.

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


If he's going down the AC route he would likely be better off going with a 240V winch.

This is a decent distance from his house, and it's wired for 120V right now. Don't think he's looking to rip up his yard to run 240V.

Originally posted by AndyL
to be difficult...

hand winch.

Most of the cheaper electric ones - are not fail safe - if gear blows - boats going for a ride. At least the usual handcrank ones are (short of drum shearing). There's a few out there that use a nylon strap instead of cable, probably a good investment.

My .02

Hand winch is great for getting boat onto trailer, which is a maybe a six foot pull at most. This boat rail system is pretty long, so you'd be cranking in sixty feet of rope each time. No thanks. Power option is crucial.


Thanks for all the suggestions. Still wondering if thinner wire rope is going to spool easier and be less prone to balling up.

[Sugarphreak]

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[blubs]

Honestly with that much amperage it would be a nightmare to do a 12V setup... My vote would other go to a gas driven unit, something like these

http://www.portablewinch.com/en/products/PCH1000.html

Seems like it would fit the bill, or if you can find something used I've seen some really impressive Air Powered winches before (IR makes em)

Synthetic lines would be my go as well.... Even on small winches cable always seems to be such an annoyance.

[AndyL]

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too..._122334_122334

? Dunno if that's enough length though.

I'd go strap, they lay flat... Wont be much difference between cable/rope - if you get loose cable balling up - you'll have failures like you did... I'm not the biggest fan of these new synthetic winch ropes, but then i'm one of those few who plays with winch cable every day

[Maxt]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow


This is a decent distance from his house, and it's wired for 120V right now. Don't think he's looking to rip up his yard to run 240V.

If its on a dedicated circuit, its easy.
The change for 240 would just be a change in the panel, a 2 pole breaker, and moving the neutral to one side of the new breaker and the black to the other.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Maxt
If its on a dedicated circuit, its easy.
The change for 240 would just be a change in the panel, a 2 pole breaker, and moving the neutral to one side of the new breaker and the black to the other.

Yep, if you're just changing a 120V-only circuit to 240V-only, you only need two conductors as 240V-only doesn't need a neutral conductor. Super easy to swap 120 for 240 on a single circuit.

That said, AC winches are really expensive compared to DC. I'm a cheapass, I'd use a DC marine strap winch like Andy linked to, and just pull the truck around whenever I needed to winch the boat up.

[ExtraSlow]

So I thought I would give some update to this.
The current DC winch works, and as far as we can tell, it's a quite old Warn unit, possibly 10,000 lbs rated. Replacing the winch isn't a preference right now. It is spooled with 100 feet of what appears to be 3/8" steel cable. That length of that diameter fills the drum 100% if it spools on nicely, and if not, it crimps the cable, which is what happened recently and started this discussion.

Since his boat, gear and boat trailer on the rails are around 5000 lbs, and the max grade he's pulling up is around 30%, that's 1500 lbs of tension in the line. Since everything is on wheels, it's a very different situation than pulling a stuck vehicle out of the mud.

Anyway, he's going to keep the current winch, and he's bought this 1/4" winch line: 1/4 in. x 100 ft Winch Cable with Hook | Princess Auto

The slightly thinner line should spool a lot better, be easier to handle, and is still rated for 2x the anticipated load.

If that old winch ever gives out, we'll check out the options on the different kinds of replacement winches. Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions. It has been very educational.

[carson blocks]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
A family member has recently bought a property on a lake ... surf boat ... cable snapped ... if money was no object

Originally posted by ExtraSlow

Anyway, he's going to keep the current winch, and he's bought this 1/4" winch line: 1/4 in. x 100 ft Winch Cable with Hook | Princess Auto

So, let me make sure I understand. baller $$$ lakefront house, decent looking $$$ boat. 3/8" cable snaps, so replace it with shitty $49 Princess Auto smaller 1/4" cable. Seems legit.

I personally wouldn't put much stock in that cable, or the rated loads of things. If your family member gives a shit at all about their boat or their safety (steel cable is a real giggle when it breaks), I'd build in a significantly better safety factor than the 2x you calculated. You're not only trusting Princess Auto's rating on the cable, but not accounting for any weakening over time, corrosion due to the water. physical damage, etc. Tell your family member not to fuck around, to throw that $49 piece of shit in the garbage where it belongs, and rig something proper using some of the great advice in this thread.

[ExtraSlow]

Ah, good point. I did mis-speak earlier in the thread when I said that it "snapped". What happened was that it didn't spool onto the drum evenly, and it crimped itself against the cage, or whatever that part of a winch is called.

The cable diameter is a major contributing factor to the original problem. So a thinner cable solves that.

As for safety factor. there is greater than 2x safety factor before the "working load" rating is reached. There is a 4.6x safety factor before the breaking strength is reached.

Also, awesome tone. That's what I usually aspire to, but rarely achieve.

[Sugarphreak]

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