Nobody cares about brexit?

[kertejud2]

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I think HitTemps point was Ireland and NI being in the EU made it easier to implement the issue of a non border/checkpoints.

So solve the 'issue' of having an open border both sides want and agreed to...by shutting the border?

You understand the confusion.

[tonytiger55]

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So solve the 'issue' of having an open border both sides want and agreed to...by shutting the border?

You understand the confusion.

No. Thats the problem in your post, which is the problem with the remain side. Its the wording that is used to totally misunderstand the issue of brexit.
The border does not get shut. There is a border there technically. You get a potential border with checkpoints. Its not shut.

[kertejud2]

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No. Thats the problem in your post, which is the problem with the remain side. Its the wording that is used to totally misunderstand the issue of brexit.
The border does not get shut. There is a border there technically. You get a potential border with checkpoints. Its not shut.

'Shut' being the opposite of 'open.' Checkpoints is the issue. Removal of the free travel and customs zone is the issue. The implications of a 'hard Brexit' on the border is the issue. Again, you don't understand the issue. Nobody expects the 90s military blockades of the 60s-90s again, but the scars are still there, and the disruption to people's lives who live on one side of the border but work on the other (or the farmers who own land that straddles the border) makes it a pretty significant issue that has not been resolved. This isn't just a case of 'where's your passport' it's also a major customs nightmare particularly because of how integrated the agriculture industry is between the two sides of the border.

May only has a government because the DUP supported her to give her a majority of seats. The problem for her is that they need a Brexit deal that doesn't change how the border works but they also want to stay in the UK. You could say 'tough titties' to them, but then she doesn't have a government anymore (so it's a pretty important detail).

[killramos]

Has anyone else noticed that the British House of Commons is far more entertaining than ours lol.

[ExtraSlow]

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Has anyone else noticed that the British House of Commons is far more entertaining than ours lol.

It's awesome.

[tonytiger55]

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'Shut' being the opposite of 'open.' Checkpoints is the issue. Removal of the free travel and customs zone is the issue. The implications of a 'hard Brexit' on the border is the issue. Again, you don't understand the issue. Nobody expects the 90s military blockades of the 60s-90s again, but the scars are still there, and the disruption to people's lives who live on one side of the border but work on the other (or the farmers who own land that straddles the border) makes it a pretty significant issue that has not been resolved. This isn't just a case of 'where's your passport' it's also a major customs nightmare particularly because of how integrated the agriculture industry is between the two sides of the border.

May only has a government because the DUP supported her to give her a majority of seats. The problem for her is that they need a Brexit deal that doesn't change how the border works but they also want to stay in the UK. You could say 'tough titties' to them, but then she doesn't have a government anymore (so it's a pretty important detail).

Well if its shut. Then you can't get through. The border is not shut. That is where I disagree.
I do understand the issue. Our difference is the understanding of free movement, checkpoints at a border and a closed border. Three separate issues.
You are confusing having a border with being closed. For sake of this discussion I will give a comparative. There is a border between Canada and USA. It is not free movement and neither is the border closed. There are checks and conditions of persons moving, length of stay etc.If the border was closed as per your argument. You are not going anywhere into the USA.

What you saying is the type of scaremongering that is done by the left. Missuse of simple words that totally misleads the issue.

Nobody is disputing your point of it being significant. Your post about May is nothing new, its common knowledge. But the issue is a bit more complex. If you go with the backstop deal, then you are having a foreign institution(the EU) have a say on British soil. That is unacceptable. I don't think you fully understand the issue other than Northern Ireland.

DUP does not want hard border or the backstop. They dont support the deal.
Conservative EuroSceptics want Hard Brexit and dont support the deal.
Moderate Conservatives want the Deal.

Labour, SNP, Liberal Democrats, and Green party do not support the deal.
Labour in particular just want a another referendum, election so Brexit does not happen. Yet they stood on a platform on the second election that they would respect the result of the referendum. Yet what they want is not clear. Their conditions of a soft brexit is exactly the same as it is now, except the UK would have zero say in the EU. So what would be the point of leaving in the first place? Not only that, nobody else is putting a real solution to the NI problem forward.
Labour keeps shifting their position, watch BBC question time over the last two years and BBC parliament. Their position last summer matched What David Davis was trying to set out at the start of the negotiations! So why did they not agree with him then?

[kertejud2]

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Well if its shut. Then you can't get through. The border is not shut. That is where I disagree.
I do understand the issue. Our difference is the understanding of free movement, checkpoints at a border and a closed border. Three separate issues.
You are confusing having a border with being closed. For sake of this discussion I will give a comparative. There is a border between Canada and USA. It is not free movement and neither is the border closed. There are checks and conditions of persons moving, length of stay etc.If the border was closed as per your argument. You are not going anywhere into the USA.

What you saying is the type of scaremongering that is done by the left. Missuse of simple words that totally misleads the issue.

Closed as you think it, closed as I meant it, effectively mean the same thing when it comes to NI support. It isn't fear mongering, it is the reality of the situation. The idea of the same border as Canada/USA is what they consider a 'closed border' since it puts restrictions the current border does not have. It is still an unacceptable solution.

That is the issue. If you go with the backstop, you don't get support. If you go with a hard brexit, you don't get support and potentially push NI to reunification. It isn't a complex issue, it's just not an easy one.

[flipstah]

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Has anyone else noticed that the British House of Commons is far more entertaining than ours lol.

Order, order... Awwwhderrr.

[Xtrema]

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That is the issue. If you go with the backstop, you don't get support. If you go with a hard brexit, you don't get support and potentially push NI to reunification. It isn't a complex issue, it's just not an easy one.

Why don't they like the Irelands reunite? Is it like Quebec leaving Canada and join France?

What is NI worth to UK? Or they just worried that Wales and Scotland will follow to separate?

[tonytiger55]

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Why don't they like the Irelands reunite? Is it like Quebec leaving Canada and join France?

What is NI worth to UK? Or they just worried that Wales and Scotland will follow to separate?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
This might give a better understanding.

But in short, King Henry the 8th wanted a divorce. The divorce went against the Roman Catholic belief system.
Henry created his own church, the Church of England.

[kertejud2]

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Why don't they like the Irelands reunite? Is it like Quebec leaving Canada and join France?

What is NI worth to UK? Or they just worried that Wales and Scotland will follow to separate?[/QUOTE]

Definitely a bigger fear of the latter (Scotland) in the practical sense. Having part of your country break off generally isn't good for the economy either, not to mention all the money that has been invested in NI in the last 20 years would effectively just be given away (they've built up a pretty good film industry in NI on the backs of British taxpayers for an example beyond just infrastructure). In the bigger picture philosophical sense, you don't really want to be seen as letting your loyal subjects down. Sure uniting Ireland is important to Irish people. But something like 40% of NI identify as British and not Irish (or even Northern Irish). How could the UK government abandon them? Especially when you factor in the Troubles and the soldiers and police and other people who died for The Crown that affected more than just people in NI.

But in reality the reason is that the people of NI haven't yet showed they want reunification, so it's not like the UK can just kick them out. The republican parts of NI want a hard Brexit because it would be the catalyst to get that talk going, but until then, the people of NI want to stay in the UK so the UK government has to respect that. Also Scotland leaving would have it's own logistical problems because the EU would still have to approve such a move which wouldn't be guaranteed (while NI joining an EU member would likely sidestep that hurdle), so NI leaving or not leaving might not have any practical effect on the Scottish independence movement.

[kertejud2]

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But in short, King Henry the 8th wanted a divorce. The divorce went against the Roman Catholic belief system.
Henry created his own church, the Church of England.

Most of the Protestants in Northern Ireland are Presbyterian, rather than Anglican.

[tonytiger55]

The Prime Minister survived the no confidence vote.
She's open to talks. But Corbyn does not want to talk unless hard brexit is ruled out. Scotland is being... er...Scotland.

Possibilities...

[ExtraSlow]

How on earth can a hard brexit be ruled out? That's the default option and literally the one that seems most likely now.

[tonytiger55]

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Closed as you think it, closed as I meant it, effectively mean the same thing when it comes to NI support. It isn't fear mongering, it is the reality of the situation. The idea of the same border as Canada/USA is what they consider a 'closed border' since it puts restrictions the current border does not have. It is still an unacceptable solution.

That is the issue. If you go with the backstop, you don't get support. If you go with a hard brexit, you don't get support and potentially push NI to reunification. It isn't a complex issue, it's just not an easy one.

You can't pick a word and redefine its meaning to suit what it means in your own head.
Its not same thing. Closed means its shut. If its shut, it means nobody can cross. Thats not the case. You would have people crossing, with checks. Thats not closed. Its A border.

It is fear mongering, it shit stirring to say create a false narrative and its downright misleading. To prove my point, if Trump decides to close the US/Canada border and not let anyone through. What is that called then..? Is that not closed? Or is it closed closed? Double closed. What your interpretation of the word closed..?
Its a Hard border... even BBC news is using the word closed. Even the bureaucrats in Dublin and NI Ireland are using the word hard border.
Nobody is using the word closed.

I encourage you watch UK Parliament, BBC Question time (thursdays/Youtube) and pay attention to the grammer and choice of words used by the opposition. Its exactly this and this is my actual point. One side uses one word purposly another side does not. Yet its interpretation by supporters is completely misinterpreted and 'told what to think'

It is a complex issue as you see it as binary and not the details. You see it as not getting support but not looking into the actual and implications across the Kingdom. You can't go with a backstop as one of the reasons I pointed out. When one actually starts to read the details and the implications as a nation, its complex issue.

[kertejud2]

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How on earth can a hard brexit be ruled out? That's the default option and literally the one that seems most likely now.

No deal = hard Brexit.

[kertejud2]

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You can't go with a backstop as one of the reasons I pointed out. When one actually starts to read the details and the implications as a nation, its complex issue.

And yet you also can’t go with a deal that has a “hard border” because they don’t have the votes for it. You are aware of this, but cast it away as irrelevant because you see the language as fear mongering and can’t see the reality of it.

[killramos]

They need a wall, and they can make the Irish pay for it.

[ExtraSlow]

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No deal = hard Brexit.

Yes. How can you rule that out when it's what happens when no other deal is reached? At this point it seems most probable.

[tonytiger55]

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And yet you also can’t go with a deal that has a “hard border” because they don’t have the votes for it. You are aware of this, but cast it away as irrelevant because you see the language as fear mongering and can’t see the reality of it.

Hard border is the default position of hard Brexit. Hard Brexit is the default position of no deal.
As for your points about not having enough votes. Lets expand that. On the CURRENT DEAL there are not enough votes in parliament as people want different things. You are not taking into account the result of the referendum itself. The majority voted leave. Parliament does not have a majority to pass a soft Brexit.

The NI issue is not cast away as irrelevant. Thats your interpretation of it.

Another interpretation is, if one is part of the United Kingdom then one has to adher to the majority of votes. The majority has a responsibility to listen to the concerns of the minority. The NI situation is a special case. Nobody has put forward a good resolution. But the problem with the current solution is it allows a foreign power to make decisions on British Soil. That can have massive legal implications down the road and the sovereignty of the United Kingdom. That CANNOT HAPPEN. The minority is refusing to respect the democratic result of the majority.

The Sovereignty of the UK (or a country) is number one and stands above all else. The moment that is forgotten in that society, that starts the breakdown of the country and society. That is something the left does not understand and is hijacked as being a soft issue.

On a separate issue. The current deal was voted down. The opposition was invited to come to talk and to say what they ACTUALLY they want. Jeremy Corbyn (leader of the opposition)does not want to talk. But yet he can talk to Hezbollah about their issues, but yet he wont talk to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom about the issues of the British people.
Thats pretty fucked up in my book.