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  1. #461
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    Turns out the end of May isn't until the first week in June
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
    Im the one with a learning disability....

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    I thought this was interesting. I liked Ben's point about the behaviour of the EU since the Brexit vote is possibly the best justification of a Brexit position.


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    Quote Originally Posted by kertejud2 View Post
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    6 months is enough time to have a referendum (or an election) if need be. It also means up to 6 more months of not having trade all messed up and mitigating the effects of a hard Brexit in the EU, which is better for the economies of member states if nothing gets done as well.
    You can't have another referendum as it undermines the entire system.
    If people vote to remain, then why should that result be respected any more than the first..? Secondly how many votes will it take..? Best out of three..? It does not work like that as it creates a constitutional crisis.

    Also you cant present the same bill to Parliament twice. Parliamentary conventions dating back to 1604 meant MPs could not be asked to vote on precisely the same subject twice. This is why once EU deals have been voted down, they cannot keep going back to the house.
    So if you present a bill to the house to have another referendum it raises questions as its same dam thing.

    If the bill is different enough that you do get it though parliament and have another referendum. It becomes a CASE that can be tested in the courts to overturn legitimate future referendums and votes. Its dangerous. You or any other party does not want that as it makes future votes can become irrelevant as they can be overturned by the minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by kertejud2 View Post
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    . If I was an MP elected after the referendum to avoid a Brexit that doesn't have a deal they want, then it's my duty to my constituents to try and do that. Why should I be bound by the non-binding referendum vote in that case?
    Because it makes you a hypocrite and undermines your own position with your constituents. Would you really do that if the majority of your constituents voted to leave? It also puts you in a position where you are not representing what your party said it would do. All major parties prior to the referendum stated they would respect the referendum result. Watch BBC question time. This is actually happening.

    Here is another angle. Many legitimate concerns were raised about the EU. Elected MP's blatantly ignored them to tow the party line. I know this as I saw my local labour MP in 2011 and he refused to take on my concerns as its a 'safe' seat.
    The referendum allowed the public to bypass that and now MP's are struggling with the result. It puts their position in question because they are not listening and gives rise to alternative parties.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    I thought this was interesting. I liked Ben's point about the behaviour of the EU since the Brexit vote is possibly the best justification of a Brexit position.

    Great video. Im a fan of Daniel Hannan.

    After the last UK election I had a discussion with a friend. The Labour party has moved so far to the left that it creates a illusion that the Conservatives are far to the right.
    Jeremy Corbyns tactic has been to frustrate and create chaos.

    I argued if Prime minister May does not get this through, then I think Boris will be elected. Now you really have a right of centre vs left of centre. Nobody wants that, but I think that is what is needed. I called it and I was right.

    The UK will leave on the 31st October. After it leaves I strongly believe there will be a trade deal between the UK and the EU. Its in the interest of both parties. But it will take the UK leaving for a REAL trade deal to happen.

    Though there is a chance Boris Johnson may call a election ahead of that. That will put the opposition in chaos as they will have to make clear their position. For this entire time they have not done that.

    Here is another interesting video. Its the UK's second time leaving the EU. David Starkey makes a interesting viewpoint. Its rather thought provoking.


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    So now there's a cross-party coalition forming to get rid of BoJo too? Is Corbyn more likely to get a deal somehow?

    As always, WTF is happening?
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    Also, how long until the queen herself just cancels the whole thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    So now there's a cross-party coalition forming to get rid of BoJo too? Is Corbyn more likely to get a deal somehow?

    As always, WTF is happening?
    The opposition will have to get a vote of no confidence passed to unseat the government. Boris then has I think 14 days to prove he has the confidence of his party otherwise he has to call a general election.
    A cross party coalition can be formed. But its a huge problem. They will need Tories to come across and put Jeremy Corby as Minister. You really want this guy in office..? But hey truth is stranger than fiction.
    The issue is time. Do they have enough time?

    Its a insight to show how elected officials are doing everything that can to go against a referendum vote and show how hypocritical their positions are. They are doing this to get a deal. But they all voted against all the previous deals.
    So by default they are wanting Brexit, but not taking any of the responsibility for it.

    The Queen can't cancel the whole thing. She can remove the Prime Minister. The problem is, her advisers say this is unlikely. It goes to the second point I made. Parliament has been given the choice of deals. They have had the power to vote on them. The default position is a no deal Brexit.

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    Whats brexit???? Leaving brunch early??????????????????????

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    So now there's a cross-party coalition forming to get rid of BoJo too? Is Corbyn more likely to get a deal somehow?

    As always, WTF is happening?
    Here's the problem facing the government. They're propped up by a party (the DUP) with this mandate:

    Support the leave vote, but if the only deal options present are a backstop or a hard-Brexit, the hard Brexit is preferrable because that maintains the stronger ties to the UK. They support a customs union with the EU to maintain the current trade freedom between NI and the ROI as well as an open border, but their support of the government is predicated on their hate of the Labour Party ('we will maintain a Tory government as long as it prevents a Labour PM' or something to that effect).

    The Cabinet presented a deal that has a backstop, because it is the easiest thing to do that doesn't violate the Good Friday agreement which necessitates an open border but keeps a layer of customs control between the EU and Great Britain. A large part of the Tories feel maintaining a customs union undermines the referendum so they don't support that, but even if they did, the DUP doesn't so the government doesn't have enough support for any such deals either way.

    Labour Party supports a customs union because it's the closest thing that supports the referendum without drastically changing day-to-day of the economy, there isn't enough support for this because the DUP won't support the Labour Party
    Last edited by kertejud2; 08-16-2019 at 02:49 PM.

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    This entire thing is really making me think less of GB.
    Britons are now the Floridians of Western Europe.

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    Good political theatre. Boris attempts to make people confront the reality that having no deal means a no-deal brexit. Politicians proceed to lose thier minds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePenIsMightier View Post
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    This entire thing is really making me think less of GB.
    Britons are now the Floridians of Western Europe.
    Has always been if you have seen an episode of Geordie Shore.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    Good political theatre. Boris attempts to make people confront the reality that having no deal means a no-deal brexit. Politicians proceed to lose thier minds.
    I understand the bargaining position and blinkmanship Boris want to create but at least 60% of the country is having none of it which totally ruin his chances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
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    I understand the bargaining position and blinkmanship Boris want to create but at least 60% of the country is having none of it which totally ruin his chances.
    I'm baffled as to what those 60% are hoping for? I truly can't figure it out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
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    Has always been if you have seen an episode of Geordie Shore.



    I understand the bargaining position and blinkmanship Boris want to create but at least 60% of the country is having none of it which totally ruin his chances.
    Where is the 60% number coming from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonytiger55 View Post
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    Where is the 60% number coming from?
    Out of my ass... I assume all the snap election talk means opposition can get enough people from the Tories to end the government and assume the threshold needed will be around 60%.

    EDIT: Ok, read up on it, it's 66%. And I should have said MPs, not country even tho MPs are ideally elected to represent... so....

    Mr. Johnson has indicated that if the rebels succeed in introducing the legislation on Tuesday, he will move to call an election for Oct. 14. The next election isn’t due until May 5, 2022, and under Britain’s fixed-term law, the vote can only be moved forward with the support of two-thirds of MPs.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    I'm baffled as to what those 60% are hoping for? I truly can't figure it out.
    I think if you add the no brexit crowd and soft brexit crowd together it should be over 2/3 of the country. I don't envy May's position and I think this should give future PM pause on holding any referendums in the future.
    Last edited by Xtrema; 09-03-2019 at 11:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
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    Out of my ass... I assume all the snap election talk means opposition can get enough people from the Tories to end the government and assume the threshold needed will be around 60%.

    EDIT: Ok, read up on it, it's 66%. And I should have said MPs, not country even tho MPs are ideally elected to represent... so....





    I think if you add the no brexit crowd and soft brexit crowd together it should be over 2/3 of the country. I don't envy May's position and I think this should give future PM pause on holding any referendums in the future.
    Fair enough.
    The Snap election might happen (Oddly enough I might still be eligible to vote). Boris just lost his majority of one.

    Part of the problem of the no brexit and soft brexit number is that its not the public. Thats MP's that have said they would respect the referendum result but then did a turn around and not represent what their constituents voted for in the referendum. I was watching a debate on Channel 4 (UK tv station). it was interesting to see how the remoaners would argue like they somehow knew what was going on in the head of people. Much of the arguments presented were to hold government to account democracy. But all I have seen is the opposition to frustrate just for the sake of it.

    I think the snap election will be interesting. The political landscape might change quite a lot here.

    Corbyn played a very clever strategy of frustration and delay. So when it comes down to the wire they can turn around and blame the government of being non democratic.
    Boris can't go to the EU to get a deal. The EU does not need to, it has the opposition government plays this role for them. Why attack when one can employ the old strategy of destroy the house form within.

    Scotlands position is very interesting. Their entire position is to continually frustrate rather than scrutinize. Just do enough to frustrate, but not enough they don't leave the union. So it keeps them in office enough to get their salary paid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonytiger55 View Post
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    Fair enough.
    I think the snap election will be interesting. The political landscape might change quite a lot here.
    I don't have intimate enough knowledge of UK politics then what CBC/BBC feeds me or how each party will sell the next election as. All I know is that I have a 3hr layover at Gatwick on Oct 15th coming home and this better not get me stranded .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
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    I don't have intimate enough knowledge of UK politics then what CBC/BBC feeds me or how each party will sell the next election as. All I know is that I have a 3hr layover at Gatwick on Oct 15th coming home and this better not get me stranded .
    Gatwick... Fuuuuuuck. I feel for you.. I really do.

    Dont leave the airport.
    At the airport there is a shop called EAT (or look for any sandwich shop). There is a drink called Appletizer. I would be greatly indebted if you would so kind to grab me a can of this deliciousness.

    503015.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonytiger55 View Post
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    Gatwick... Fuuuuuuck. I feel for you.. I really do.

    Dont leave the airport.
    At the airport there is a shop called EAT (or look for any sandwich shop). There is a drink called Appletizer. I would be greatly indebted if you would so kind to grab me a can of this deliciousness.

    503015.jpg
    This place used to carry it. https://goo.gl/maps/4H9VdSmvWyFr6XV68

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    What a shit show

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49573555

    TLDR

    -MPs vote to take control of the Commons agenda by 328 votes to 301, in their bid to stop the UK leaving the EU on 31 October without a deal
    -They are expected to bring forward a bill tomorrow that would force PM Boris Johnson to delay Brexit unless MPs back a new deal or vote for a no-deal exit
    -Prime Minister Boris Johnson says he will table a motion to call for a general election if that bill passes
    -Earlier, the government lost its Commons majority after Conservative MP Phillip Lee defected to the Liberal Democrats
    -Mr Johnson has insisted the UK must leave the EU on 31 October - with or without a deal
    -Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said he is ready to go to the polls - but some in his party are suggesting otherwise
    Last edited by Xtrema; 09-03-2019 at 04:56 PM.

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    I can’t wait until Britain leaves. It will be almost as sweet as the time trump became president.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.

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