NDP about to cost us 2 billion over coal power

[suntan]

Originally posted by BandW
I hate socialism.

Except for when the private sector keeps the profits and saddles the public with the losses. 2008 was my favorite kind of socialism. Essentially US taxpayer insured MBS CDS instruments all day.

I too was hoping that they would restrict the money supply. I've always wanted $30 broccoli and GICs that pay me 24% APR.

[InRich]

Originally posted by redblack
You guys voted for change, so I don't see what the problem is

lol funny you said that... The other day I was door knocking west hills area and the guy told me he had absolutly no money for renovations, or for that matter in the bank. So for kicks I asked him who he voted for. He replied NDP. So I says... Well you shouldn't be complaining then, its your fault.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by codetrap
So, I guess the big question is, "Are the contracts illegal or not?" If we could set aside all the NDP hate for a few minutes... are they? Do they actually have a legal leg to stand on?

It's pretty standard to write such clauses into contracts. I mean if you were getting into a monopolistic contract with the province and they had the power to legislate something that would be detrimental to that same contract would you not want protection from the whims of the government?

That's pretty much what was written... I mean straight up the fact the NDP government is spinning this as "Enron" clauses should be a gigantic red flag. That or the this as a "secret" clause? How the blazes was it secret it's written right on the contract that was signed in 2000. End of the day a contract is a contract and you can't renege on clauses 16 years later because well today I don't like the results of what I agreed to do 16 years ago...

This is just backpedaling from a government which passed legislation on dreams and pixie dust. I mean frankly who actually thought that you could effectively ban coal and implement a carbon tax without tax payers then being on the hook for billions? Do people think power plants and whatnot just grow on trees or that companies build them out of the kindness of their hearts?

The NDP is repeating the fiasco that Ontario has been dealing with right here at home with their attempts to magically change an industry around without paying a dime. One way or another you and I are going to pay for this...

[HiTempguy1]

While I am the first to get pissed at companies, this isn't even shady. It was right there. Everyone knew about it (or should have known about it).

Sucks to suck NDP, unfortunately, we will pay in the end one way or another. The only proper way to save face with this would be to delay it until the clause expired in 2020... but there is no way their landmark legislation would be delayed like that.

Meh, whats another $2bil out of the taxpayers pocket for no particular reason besides the feels?

[M.alex]

Originally posted by FraserB
The bigger issue is if they win the court challenge. If you do, they'll effectively scare investment away.

this.

If somehow they were able to win (it's kind of scary when the smart lawyers are saying it sounds stupid but they don't make that bad an argument) how the hell do you ever enter into a contract with the government knowing they could turn around and make up some BS to get out of it.

[codetrap]

.

[dirtsniffer]

“The regulation has been available publicly through the Queen’s Printer for 15 or 16 years,” McIver said. “So if the government didn’t know what the regulations were and what the contracts were before they changed them, they are completely negligent and incompetent.”

http://m.metronews.ca/#/article/news...arbon-tax.html

[g-m]

He's not wrong. It's Ontario, I said it then and it's still true. What a stupid fucking idea.

[schocker]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer


http://m.metronews.ca/#/article/news...arbon-tax.html

If we need another good example of the NDP knowing how to do things well, look at the current liquor issue. They revised it not even a year after their first change.

July 2016
http://globalnews.ca/news/2820432/al...craft-brewers/
October 2015
http://globalnews.ca/news/2304181/li...playing-field/

How is it possible to make so many changes without doing any research or forecasts on the impact their choices will have

[R154]

Just for fun, you guys should drive down to pincher creek one afternoon and look west at all the windmills.

Now, all of the power generated by all the windmills in Alberta is said to equal ~9% of our yearly consumption, but not necessarily during peak. They say they have 1.5GW capacity which when compared against the 16.261GW production ability = 9.22%. So they are saying Alberta produces & consumes 100% of our wind production.

The important part is that year over year from `15 to `16 they (gov't incentive) have increased total wind power production by 4%. That's not nothing.

I mean, put aside the production argument, or the on demand electrical implications, things are being done. Its fashionable to say new ideas are stupid. And sure there are drawbacks, but its clearly working.

Do people really know what made Alberta fucking balling? Im not talking about that steady Ft. McMurray money. Here's a hint, it wasn't oil. It was natural gas.

Big producers drilled for gas. What gas they couldn't get to market they'd build a cogen or natural gas installment and sell the power. Or at least that's the way that it was meant to work. When nat gas was $8/gj Alberta wasn't just printing money, we were selling the printing presses. Then our darling -fracking- was taken down south and a glut of nat gas came to market which obliterated the price. Alberta lost a massive segment of its economy when gas collapsed. To this day all the old timers talk about is when gas was good, they didnt even notice how much we were paying for fuel.

Coal going offline immediately would no doubt in the short term fuck us, because we'd end up having to buy power from elsewhere until the supply curve (Production) catches the demand curve. Coal is like 45% of our total energy production system.

Overall, the upside, is that if Alberta increases its power production to the point where it becomes a hugely net exporter, we then get a secondary industry and another kick at the energy can.

Companies like Siemens, ATCO and Altalink are maybe testing this with their "test bed" of the twin HVDC sites. They are trying to make long distance transmissions economical and viable. So far the project has been met with praise.

Maybe the big guys know something we don't... surprise surprise.

I am hopeful that the spirit that makes me Albertan to the core is the same force that will drive my fellow colleagues to make Alberta profitable again.

I refuse to believe that a city, a province or a country with so much raw talent and intelligence can find an another market to become leaders with again.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by R154
Just for fun, you guys should drive down to pincher creek one afternoon and look west at all the windmills.

Now, all of the power generated by all the windmills in Alberta is said to equal ~9% of our yearly consumption, but not necessarily during peak. They say they have 1.5GW capacity which when compared against the 16.261GW production ability = 9.22%. So they are saying Alberta produces & consumes 100% of our wind production.

The important part is that year over year from `15 to `16 they (gov't incentive) have increased total wind power production by 4%. That's not nothing.

I mean, put aside the production argument, or the on demand electrical implications, things are being done. Its fashionable to say new ideas are stupid. And sure there are drawbacks, but its clearly working.

Well the whole problem is that it's really hard to get a clear view of the stats involved in wind power unless you are inside the industry. There's just too much spin and wishful thinking by outsiders with agendas to push. So I guarantee we do not consume 100% of our wind production. That's just straight up impossible and thinking otherwise means one does not understand how grid stability is maintained. There's just no way that the wind conveniently blows right when we need power and doesn't blow when we don't need additional power.

Secondly at the moment at lot of wind power is being decommissioned or is being brought offline. It's currently not economically viable to repair broken down wind turbines hence why most of the service companies that specialize in this field are currently sitting idle and have been for the better part of the last few years. The pincher creek TransAlta location is being decommissioned with no plans of rebuilding the wind farm. It isn't economic without hilarious amounts of government subsidies.

I mean we can keep chasing idle dreams or we actually address the problem and build nuclear plants...

[R154]

Full disclosure: I design and build large natural gas/cogen/diesel power generation in low and medium voltage (480-13.8K).

I am very aware about the stability model and demand curve. It would make sense that we COULD consume 100% of wind IF the load shedding capacity of the merging facility were adequate to deal with production fluctuations & the designated load demand were relatively constant or at least could over demand the given production continuously.

Notice how I included phrases like "they said, they are saying." this shows my skepticism of the figures, but overall my dependence on official gov't available figures for comparison. I know it isnt fully representative, or indeed, fully truthful. However, it gives me something to look at.

All I know, is when my company was bidding on a new cogen facility, the customer is very seriously putting us against a thermal & wind solution. They are still deliberating. This is a 10MW facility. Small potatoes... relatively. But again, its not nothing.

I do, at a very base level agree with your sentiment. That we should be chasing viable solutions of the day. What I don't like, is the idea that we should stop looking at every option, no matter how big or small their contribution is.

[revelations]

I have a feeling the NDP might scale back some of the carbon BS as a result of this type of gross incompetence.

They (at least) seem to be receptive to some of the public outcry on occasion - despite their faults.

[dandia89]

so they want a carbon tax to motivate companies for alternate energy. But they sue so they can keep companies on the hook to pay carbon tax. Sounds quite hypocritical and a desperation for some easy revenue

[phreezee]

So should I be locking in my electricity rate with Enmax?

[googe]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin

I mean we can keep chasing idle dreams or we actually address the problem and build nuclear plants...

If you support nuclear, you should support a carbon tax. Nobody in their right mind is going to walk away from the cash faucet of fossil fuels and tell their shareholders that they are investing in nuclear. The only way out of a race to the bottom is for government to make the bad option less profitable. Once everyone has to play by the same rules, they will compete, lobby, and PR whatever they have to in order to make room for new revenue streams. Unfortunately the path of least resistance is still the lightning rod that is the NDP.

[R154]

Originally posted by phreezee
So should I be locking in my electricity rate with Enmax?

lol, not for 2 years.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by googe
If you support nuclear, you should support a carbon tax.

I don't support the tax in it's current form because it's not designed to do anything but shift taxation. If the tax was designed to move us away from carbon heavy electricity production then the collected revenue would have to be allocated to the creation of new power plants. That's not the case. The government is playing a shell game where they tax the wealthy who use carbon and then shovel the money back to the poor who also use carbon. That's feel good social welfare and a PST in anything but name. All the money should have to be fully allocated to the creation of carbon neutral energy sources like Nuclear not be part of the governments slush fund.

[msommers]

Is nuclear even on the table for Alberta anymore? Haven't kept track of whatever happened to that.