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    I’m gonna wait for the second gen MacBook with the new chips and see how they hold up.

    But with iPadOS, is the MacBook still relevant?


    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    The benefit of masks is not known at this time. But we do know it is some non-trivial amount more than zero.

    We also know that the cost of mask use is, essentially, zero.

    So the cost:benefit of mask use is approaching infinity. I'll take that every time. And every time I see someone without a mask, I think they are stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstah View Post
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    I’m gonna wait for the second gen MacBook with the new chips and see how they hold up.

    But with iPadOS, is the MacBook still relevant?
    Ever tried doing real work on an iPad?
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstah View Post
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    I’m gonna wait for the second gen MacBook with the new chips and see how they hold up.

    But with iPadOS, is the MacBook still relevant?
    As much as Apple put Adobe out there to keep the creative people happy, Creative Cloud is not even fully on ARM yet and whats there won't make the pros happy. Especially ones who just dropped $20-30k on a Xeon based MacPro

    Technically it make sense since Moore's Law is still alive on the ARM side while slowed quite a bit on X86. Even with AMD Ryzen outpacing Intel.
    Last edited by Xtrema; 06-22-2020 at 10:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Ever tried doing real work on an iPad?
    Just Word. Is that work?


    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    The benefit of masks is not known at this time. But we do know it is some non-trivial amount more than zero.

    We also know that the cost of mask use is, essentially, zero.

    So the cost:benefit of mask use is approaching infinity. I'll take that every time. And every time I see someone without a mask, I think they are stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstah View Post
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    Just Word. Is that work?
    It's not work until you whip out Excel with pivot table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
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    As much as Apple put Adobe out there to keep the creative people happy, Creative Cloud is not even fully on ARM yet and whats there won't make the pros happy. Especially ones who just dropped $20-30k on a Xeon based MacPro

    Technically it make sense since Moore's Law is still alive on the ARM side while slowed quite a bit on X86. Even with AMD Ryzen outpacing Intel.
    They did say they still have some intel products in the pipeline that they were excited about so maybe a mac pro refresh or something as those would be the last to change over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schocker View Post
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    They did say they still have some intel products in the pipeline that they were excited about so maybe a mac pro refresh or something as those would be the last to change over.
    Yesterday’s announcement would make me very leery about investing in an intel based Mac now.

    Gonna be a lot of bloated unoptimized programs in macs future and Apple will want to clean that shut up within 5-6 years max.

    I bet we see an arm only OSX by 2025, that to me makes buying a Mac right now a tough sell.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Yesterday’s announcement would make me very leery about investing in an intel based Mac now.

    Gonna be a lot of bloated unoptimized programs in macs future and Apple will want to clean that shut up within 5-6 years max.

    I bet we see an arm only OSX by 2025, that to me makes buying a Mac right now a tough sell.
    I just bought a MBP 13" for the family. Still in shipping. I figure there's 4-5 years life on that thing at this point. Not all software will be ARM only even after the 2 year transition, hence Universal binaries so that it supports both x86 and ARM Macs.

    Honestly with Adobe's track record of development prowess it'd be at least 5 years before we get Creative Suite running on ARM better than x86. Have you seen the shit show that's Creative Cloud iPad OS? Affinity Photo on iPad is comparable to Photoshop on a Mac. Photoshop and Lightroom on a Mac is a fucking joke and it's been how many years since they've been working on it?

    I'm still using a 5 year old MacBook 12" for Zoom meetings and google docs when I don't need a 2nd monitor. 5 years I've gone beyond getting my money's worth TBH.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    I guess my point is Apple is going to mandate a hard shutdown well before developers are ready to let go of x86, probably to improve battery life performance of bloated universal apps.

    The people who really lose in that scenario are users.

    All of the things you are quoting are the reasons why I am concerned. This isn’t me being a Mac hater, I love them. I just have a hard time dropping 2-3k in a new MBP or an iMac right now with all this hanging over the purchase like a dark cloud.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    I guess my point is Apple is going to mandate a hard shutdown well before developers are ready to let go of x86, probably to improve battery life performance of bloated universal apps.

    The people who really lose in that scenario are users.

    All of the things you are quoting are the reasons why I am concerned. This isn’t me being a Mac hater, I love them. I just have a hard time dropping 2-3k in a new MBP or an iMac right now with all this hanging over the purchase like a dark cloud.
    Universal binaries. It's basically just storage bloat. No battery life impact. Even Rosetta 2 translates during install again resulting in storage bloat and not battery life performance. To a degree anyways, native ARM will always be more efficient. They can sell more SSD for more profits so it's something Apple can milk too haha.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    Benchmarks for Apples Arm based dev kits are starting to show up ( Mac mini with an iPad Pro chip ).

    Looks like it’s coming in slightly weaker than an i3 base Mac mini from 2018:

    ARM Mac Mini
    Single Core ~ 830
    Multi Core ~ 2700

    2018 i3 Mac Mini
    Single Core ~ 900
    Multi Core ~ 3300

    2018 i5 Mac Mini
    Single Core ~ 1100
    Multi Core ~5300

    2018 i7 Mac Mini
    Single Core ~1100
    Multi Core ~6000

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...95af6e2ef02771

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...c+mini+2018+i3

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...c+mini+2018+i5

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...c+mini+2018+i7
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
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    Is Apple TV 4K worth it if you have Apple TV HD? I have mine connected with the projector and I am not sure if I am missing out on better quality running the TV HD and not TV 4K with my 4K projector. I typically just use Netflix and Prime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakalaka View Post
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    Is Apple TV 4K worth it if you have Apple TV HD? I have mine connected with the projector and I am not sure if I am missing out on better quality running the TV HD and not TV 4K with my 4K projector. I typically just use Netflix and Prime.
    In my opinion yes. The speed of the 4k over the HD is very noticeable as well when transitioning menus or using any intensive apps. I have both and the 4k is considerably better, i wonder however if a new version is going to be released in September.
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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Benchmarks for Apples Arm based dev kits are starting to show up ( Mac mini with an iPad Pro chip ).

    Looks like it’s coming in slightly weaker than an i3 base Mac mini from 2018:

    ARM Mac Mini
    Single Core ~ 830
    Multi Core ~ 2700

    2018 i3 Mac Mini
    Single Core ~ 900
    Multi Core ~ 3300

    2018 i5 Mac Mini
    Single Core ~ 1100
    Multi Core ~5300

    2018 i7 Mac Mini
    Single Core ~1100
    Multi Core ~6000

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...95af6e2ef02771

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...c+mini+2018+i3

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...c+mini+2018+i5

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...c+mini+2018+i7
    I would assume these tests are run using Rosetta? If so I could see the performance drop, those results are not as good as the same chip in an iPad where the benchmarking can run as a native app.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavy View Post
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    I would assume these tests are run using Rosetta? If so I could see the performance drop, those results are not as good as the same chip in an iPad where the benchmarking can run as a native app.
    Yea this is run on Rosetta 2.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shakalaka View Post
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    Is Apple TV 4K worth it if you have Apple TV HD? I have mine connected with the projector and I am not sure if I am missing out on better quality running the TV HD and not TV 4K with my 4K projector. I typically just use Netflix and Prime.
    Yes worth it but I echo the poster above in wait for a refresh.

    I would say 50% plus of my content is 4K now, plus all the UI etc is in 4K which looks way better.

    Always run your sources at native to what your display can handle. Plumbing 1080p into a 4K projector is a recipe for failure. Let the AppleTV hardware do the upscaling.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Yea this is run on Rosetta 2.
    If that's the case then I honestly do not think that is bad for a 2yr old chip that will never make it into a retail Mac desktop. Less than 40% overhead in emulation on beta Rosetta 2 (that only recognises 4 cores according to my dev portal so it's missing the other 4) is much better than I would have expected. Actually makes me excited to see where Rosetta 2 will be in a few years of development and how an A15Z (or whatever they call their desktop chip when they release it) will be optimized for it.

    Update: when looking into this someone did an openCl comparison.
    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/com...seline=1138304

    More updates: appears my Marth isn't great. The super geeks are saying 30% overhead so in emulation Rosetta is getting 70% native performance, that's Unreal. Assuming they are able to grow the computing power by 20% a generation like they have the last few years and then the desktop chip runs desktop voltage these ARM machines are going to be powerhouses in native apps.
    Last edited by Kavy; 06-29-2020 at 10:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shakalaka View Post
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    Is Apple TV 4K worth it if you have Apple TV HD? I have mine connected with the projector and I am not sure if I am missing out on better quality running the TV HD and not TV 4K with my 4K projector. I typically just use Netflix and Prime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kavy View Post
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    In my opinion yes. The speed of the 4k over the HD is very noticeable as well when transitioning menus or using any intensive apps. I have both and the 4k is considerably better, i wonder however if a new version is going to be released in September.
    Dolby Atmos is only available on the Apple TV 4K if you're setup for it.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Benchmarks for Apples Arm based dev kits are starting to show up ( Mac mini with an iPad Pro chip ).

    Looks like it’s coming in slightly weaker than an i3 base Mac mini from 2018:

    ARM Mac Mini
    Single Core ~ 830
    Multi Core ~ 2700

    2018 i3 Mac Mini
    Single Core ~ 900
    Multi Core ~ 3300

    2018 i5 Mac Mini
    Single Core ~ 1100
    Multi Core ~5300

    2018 i7 Mac Mini
    Single Core ~1100
    Multi Core ~6000

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...95af6e2ef02771

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...c+mini+2018+i3

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...c+mini+2018+i5

    https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu...c+mini+2018+i7
    A13 single core is 10% faster than A12.

    A14 is rumored to be 20% faster than A12.

    So in emulation it can potentially be close to i5 performance with A14. Which isn't bad. And remember the A12Z (4+4) costs around $50. A13 (2+4) is around $30. A14 (2+4) on 5nm is expected to drop that to $23. So in theory, Apple can slap 2 A14 into a Mac (4+8) and have a 12 core proc for $50, easily squeeze another $100-200 margin per device.

    And if everyone rewrite for ARM, then you won't even have the emulation penalty. Intel has not get their shit together since 2016 and seems like their road back will be a long one for Apple to pull this move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
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    A13 single core is 10% faster than A12.

    A14 is rumored to be 20% faster than A12.

    So in emulation it can potentially be close to i5 performance with A14. Which isn't bad. And remember the A12Z (4+4) costs around $50. A13 (2+4) is around $30. A14 (2+4) on 5nm is expected to drop that to $23. So in theory, Apple can slap 2 A14 into a Mac (4+8) and have a 12 core proc for $50, easily squeeze another $100-200 margin per device.

    And if everyone rewrite for ARM, then you won't even have the emulation penalty. Intel has not get their shit together since 2016 and seems like their road back will be a long one for Apple to pull this move.
    That's not how it works.

    Geekbench is an architecture benchmark only - an A14 has nowhere near the power of a higher wattage Intel i5 processor and Geekbench cannot be used to accurately compare entire systems either, especially ones that are actively cooled.

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