Online survey - New penalties for speeding

[EM2FTL]

http://www.alberta.ca/traffic-safety...sultation.aspx

This will be up until Sept. 25, it's a new survey on OHV helmets and the introduction of penalties for speeding above 50km/h (survey suggests contemplation of immediate vehicle seizure and license suspension, similar to what BC is doing).

How input will be used

The Government of Alberta is considering amendments to the Traffic Safety Act, which will be based on the responses gathered from this survey. Legislation is expected to follow in the Fall 2016 session.

[jwslam]

"Responses will be used" means "we will filter out the ones in our favor and claim that's the voice of the public"

And obviously "unsafe speeds" are anything over what they defined for revenue purposes.

[schocker]

Uh oh. Watch them turn excessive speeding into 25 km/h over.

[g-m]

Did the survey. Is the government that out to lunch on passing?

[carson blocks]

I'm not in favour of the OHV helmet legislation. I do a pretty good job of deciding when to wear my helmet. I don't see a need for a helmet when I'm in my caged SxS idling down a cut line at 5-15km/h looking for animal tracks, wearing my fur hat to keep warm. Keeping warm and being able to use binoculars, and maybe even jump out and bring my rifle up without having to take off a helmet is something I value during hunting season. When I'm ripping along at 80-100km/h, I'm absolutely wearing it, but putting down a cut line, it's cumbersome and an inconvenience. Let people make their own safety decisions.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by g-m
Did the survey. Is the government that out to lunch on passing?

This is all about revenue generation, not safety.

But this also could be a knee jerk reaction to that Okanagan Bob video on Youtube.

[elite]

Originally posted by carson blocks
I'm not in favour of the OHV helmet legislation. I do a pretty good job of deciding when to wear my helmet. I don't see a need for a helmet when I'm in my caged SxS idling down a cut line at 5-15km/h looking for animal tracks, wearing my fur hat to keep warm. Keeping warm and being able to use binoculars, and maybe even jump out and bring my rifle up without having to take off a helmet is something I value during hunting season. When I'm ripping along at 80-100km/h, I'm absolutely wearing it, but putting down a cut line, it's cumbersome and an inconvenience. Let people make their own safety decisions.

This. 18+ at the discretion of the driver unless on public roads. Kids I would still throw one on though regardless

[Masked Bandit]

Completed survey. Helmets for kids, sure. Licence suspension and / or vehicle seizure for speeding...HELL NO!

I would be more inclined to have police issue dangerous driving charges when someone is busted doing 150 KPH on Glenmore in traffic as opposed to catching someone doing 180 KPH on a four lane highway at 6:00 AM with nobody else around.

[Abeo]

Originally posted by carson blocks
Let people make their own safety decisions.

People already are, and there are lots of head injuries. That's why they are looking into it, because it's not working too well.

As for speeding, it sucks... but they are just aligning their penalties with other provinces. I really hope they don't go nuts on first time offenders, but I'm pretty sure the rules have already been drafted and this is a meaningless 'input' phase.

[carson blocks]

Originally posted by Abeo


People already are, and there are lots of head injuries. That's why they are looking into it, because it's not working too well.

I'm having trouble finding stats specifically on ATV head injuries, but according to the Alberta Injury Prevention Center stats, emergency room visits from ATV use in general are down 47% from 991.1 visits per 10,000 registered ATVs in 2003 to 527.3 visits per 10,000 registered ATVs. Keep in mind not nearly all of those will be head injuries as well and will be cuts etc. that helmets would not affect.

For the stats on major trauma, over the 5 year period of Jan 1 2006- Dec 31 2010, there were 489 OHV related traumas. This averages out to 97.8/year. Of those traumas, 28.3% were head injuries, so we're talking 27.6 head injuries per year due to OHVs in a province with over 100,000 registered OHVs (2010). Keep in mind some of these people with head injuries were wearing helmets already, so you're saving less than the 27 injuries by implementing helmet laws for well over 100,000 OHV users (there are tons of unregistered OHVs on acreages, farms, etc).

So, in summary, injuries in general are trending down and you support inconveniencing every OHV user and impacting their hobbies such as the hunting example I gave, as a result of less than 0.027% of OHV users getting a head injury, while the remaining 99.973% of OHV users apparently made appropriate risk assessments and adjusted either their riding style or gear choices to the situation appropriately and avoided head injuries.

[dino_martini]

I think if they get enough responses they will listen to the survey results. Remember when they did the License Plate survey and Beyond rigged those results? No front plate so far despite the Police crying about it. Could go the same way if the results are overwhelmingly in favour of one side or the other.

[NoPulp]

I don't like the 50km+ thing. I think its so situational. If you're doing that with a bunch of people around, then yeah there needs to be some major consequences. If you're doing 50+ in a situation where you're only putting yourself in danger... I don't know how you'd enforce that though.


I was hoping there was a comment section, wanted to bitch about lack of tracks in Alberta At least give people to opportunity to make a good choice for their need for speed.

[Abeo]

Originally posted by carson blocks
I'm having trouble finding stats specifically on ATV head injuries, but according to the Alberta Injury Prevention Center stats, emergency room visits from ATV use in general are down 47% from 991.1 visits per 10,000 registered ATVs in 2003 to 527.3 visits per 10,000 registered ATVs. Keep in mind not nearly all of those will be head injuries as well and will be cuts etc. that helmets would not affect.

For the stats on major trauma, over the 5 year period of Jan 1 2006- Dec 31 2010, there were 489 OHV related traumas. This averages out to 97.8/year. Of those traumas, 28.3% were head injuries, so we're talking 27.6 head injuries per year due to OHVs in a province with over 100,000 registered OHVs (2010). Keep in mind some of these people with head injuries were wearing helmets already, so you're saving less than the 27 injuries by implementing helmet laws for well over 100,000 OHV users (there are tons of unregistered OHVs on acreages, farms, etc).

If you want to know the difference in helmet use makes in the severity of the accidents...

On-road ATV helmet use: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/mo...ts/motorcycles

Scroll down to the "ATV" section, and you can get a glimpse of the effect of helmets vs none, on a much wider sample size. 81% of ATV riders who died on public roads were without helmets

As for off road use, there was a study based on ATV's and helmet use with regards to traumatic brain injuries (TBI)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19190268

After multivariable adjustment, compared with helmeted riders, unhelmeted riders were significantly more likely to sustain any TBI and major/severe TBI . Unhelmeted riders were significantly more likely to die while in hospital than were helmeted riders . Significant injuries to the neck and face regions were also significantly more likely in unhelmeted riders.

Originally posted by carson blocks
So, in summary, injuries in general are trending down and you support inconveniencing every OHV user and impacting their hobbies such as the hunting example I gave, as a result of less than 0.027% of OHV users getting a head injury, while the remaining 99.973% of OHV users apparently made appropriate risk assessments and adjusted either their riding style or gear choices to the situation appropriately and avoided head injuries.

I don't see us having enough information of it trending up or down. Like you said, it's hard finding stats specifically on ATV head injuries. We do have information about helmet use and brain injuries, though. Seems pretty simple... don't wear a helmet, have a higher chance of dying from a brain injury.

Do you really think the 0.027% of OHV users who got a head injury didn't made appropriate risk assessments, and they somehow deserved their head injury from their choices? The 99.973% of owners made appropriate choices because they didn't injure themselves? Just because someone does something risky and get away with it doesn't make it safe. Also, you are comparing the number of OHV's to the number of riders who got a brain injury. That's like comparing the number of hockey sticks to hockey concussions

Wearing a helmet is hardly an arduous task, and a minor inconvenience at worse. Wear an open face or modular helmet, and you can use binoculars just fine. I can take my helmet off while dirt biking in a few seconds, including taking my glasses off and back on again. I see your helmet inconvenience complaint the same way I see people who complain about car seat belts.
BTW, you can have a really good crash at 10 or 15 km/hr if there are hills involved. Especially if you are distracted or have the machine balance thrown off with a heavy load.
I've come across enough people in a blind corner who are hauling ass (especially the 'bogger' types), and I'd rather be hit by them while I'm wearing a helmet than without, regardless if I'm putting around.

After all that, sure. Putting around without a helmet probably won't hurt you. What about the people hauling ass without a helmet though?

[ercchry]

Love how BC is raising speed limits and going after left lane hogs and we're doing this...

What happened to the "Wild West"?! Fucking god damn nanny state bullshit. Is there anywhere left where Darwin is still in charge?

[ercchry]

Is a golf cart an ohv? Better put on a helmet on the golf course! Shit is dangerous! Fucking hard balls flying all over the place and shit!

[carson blocks]

Originally posted by Abeo
I don't see us having enough information of it trending up or down.

I'm willing to accept the stats I posted from the Alberta Injury Prevention Center's study on the issue, unless you can find a reason to refute it?

Originally posted by Abeo
Seems pretty simple... don't wear a helmet, have a higher chance of dying from a brain injury.

I won't argue that, but I think given the few head injuries every year, we should allow people to continue to make their own choices based on how they're using the OHV. OHVs have a much wider range of uses, over a much wider range of terrain than say, street motorcycles, for which there is a helmet law that I support.

Originally posted by Abeo
Do you really think the 0.027% of OHV users who got a head injury didn't made appropriate risk assessments, and they somehow deserved their head injury from their choices?
The 99.973% of owners made appropriate choices because they didn't injure themselves? Just because someone does something risky and get away with it doesn't make it safe. Also, you are comparing the number of OHV's to the number of riders who got a brain injury. That's like comparing the number of hockey sticks to hockey concussions

I'm merely saying that the data shows a fairly small amount of incidents compared to the number of registered OHVs, which is the best measure I can get as it's not like there is licensing for OHV operators. I believe the government uses similar measurements for motor vehicle collisions, so it's hardly a ridiculous measure.

Originally posted by Abeo
Wearing a helmet is hardly an arduous task, and a minor inconvenience at worse. Wear an open face or modular helmet, and you can use binoculars just fine.

You cannot use a set of binoculars while wearing a dirt bike helmet, which seems to be the common and responsible choice for OHV users. Do you have a side-by-side? Please don't compare the risk of dirtbiking to slow speed riding in a stable utility SxS. Do you hunt? My average scouting adventure up a cut line involves getting out of the machine probably 100x a day. I'm getting out to look at tracks, trails, etc. and would like to use my binoculars or cheek my rifle without taking my helmet off, and putting it back on 30 seconds later. At -20, I would much rather keep my insulated hunting hat on and stay warm. Like I mentioned, I doubt I ever exceed 15km/h while doing this, and I'm in a fully caged SxS with doors. Please tell me from a practical point of view, how a helmet is an appropriate control for this level of risk?

Originally posted by Abeo
I can take my helmet off while dirt biking in a few seconds, including taking my glasses off and back on again. I see your helmet inconvenience complaint the same way I see people who complain about car seat belts.
BTW, you can have a really good crash at 10 or 15 km/hr if there are hills involved. Especially if you are distracted or have the machine balance thrown off with a heavy load.

In hilly, difficult terrain, I would opt to put my helmet on. As an adult, I can assess the situation and the risk, and make an intelligent decision on my risk tolerance and the need for a control such as a helmet in that situation. I don't need a blanket rule from the government to convince me to protect my head when necessary. Since it's no more of an inconvenience than seat belts, and since it would definitely reduce head injuries, should we wear them when driving a car on the street? No, because people have deemed that the inconvenience outweighs the reduction in risk. The right controls for the right situation.

Originally posted by Abeo I've come across enough people in a blind corner who are hauling ass (especially the 'bogger' types), and I'd rather be hit by them while I'm wearing a helmet than without, regardless if I'm putting around.

After all that, sure. Putting around without a helmet probably won't hurt you. What about the people hauling ass without a helmet though?

When wheeling in recreational areas, I'd opt to wear a helmet. I actually always wear one for recreational riding. I guarantee however if I were to take you out for a day of scouting, by half way through the day, your helmet would be left in the back seat. Like I've said a few times, it's about using the right gear for the right situation. I do not trust the governments ability to make a law that adequately covers the exceedingly wide range of OHV usage scenarios, so I'm advocating for the status quo.

Please don't think I'm a luddite who shuns safety gear either, I wear appropriate safety gear on my motorcycle and dirt bike, and on my OHV most of the time. I'm just saying that the spectrum of OHV users is much past the idiots bouncing around at Waiparous who you automatically think of when you think OHV. You don't think of the guy pottering up a cut line in a fully caged and doored SxS, in the freezing cold with full fall/winter gear and think he just might prefer the ability to judge his own risk and decide that a fur lined hunting hat beats a helmet in that particular situation.

Edit: Forgot the most important thing, I can't sip my piping hot Contigo full of coffee while hunting if the gubmint makes me wear a helmet at all times! Hunting without a contigo full of strong black coffee is unimaginable!

[jacky4566]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Completed survey. Helmets for kids, sure. Licence suspension and / or vehicle seizure for speeding...HELL NO!

I would be more inclined to have police issue dangerous driving charges when someone is busted doing 150 KPH on Glenmore in traffic as opposed to catching someone doing 180 KPH on a four lane highway at 6:00 AM with nobody else around.

Mind if I copy this? +1 on opinion.

[codetrap]

.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by codetrap
No safety equipment == no public health insurance

I kinda like that idea. I don't want a law that states you need to wear a helmet as I've been in similar situations to what others have mentioned where it really would be unwarranted. But at the same time I don't want to pay for someone's medical bills if they do something stupid and have a traumatic head injury due to not wearing one.

Plus all you have to do is write a sob story and set up a gofundme right

[revelations]

Penalties for chronic/repeat offenders should be higher. For eg. one kid on a crotch rocket going 200 on DF on a quiet evening, with a clean record shouldn't lose their license for 7 days/vehicle impounded. A stiff fine should be enough.

If however, Joe blow with a bad record was going 200 on DF with his mustang. They need to lose their license for a while.