Coquitlam RCMP investigating after 2 seniors dragged.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Gestalt
Cops time is valuable. There are speeding tickets and j walking tickets so write.

They are actually making the city money writing tickets, so yes, that time is considered productive ..... esp towards month end quotas (which I have never agreed with)

[revelations]

Originally posted by Gestalt


You are telling me, you can imagine a circumstance where you would drag an 80 year old persons down the stairs like show in the video?

I've played every scenario in my head. Kicking me in the balls, spitting on me, trying to give me a blow job etc.

I cannot fathom an instance of circumstance where I would lower myself to the level required to mistreat an 80 year old person like that.

It actually turns my stomach that so many here think that anything can justify that level of brutality.

The video shows the member dragging the male, by their hand, down the stairs (keeping their head off the ground) when the male grabbed the railing with his free hand, spun around and slid down a few steps.

The member then grabbed the male again, with his hand, and proceeded to continue pulling him out of the premises - again, keeping their head off the ground.

This is a normal event for the Police/Bouncers/Security guards. People resist all the time and you drag them along the floor as needed, but at the same time trying to avoid further injury by keeping their head off the ground. If another member is around to help, great, if not, most guys can drag an average person around the ground just fine without causing injury.

**PHIL *** My question is: were these people arrestable and if so, why not just handcuff them and escort/walk/cart them out?

Too bad the entire process wasnt captured (or released) for proper viewing. Compare this to the YVR Taser event, where the ENTIRE arrival of the RCMP, to the CEW use, to the post event actions, were all covered on video and served an extremely clear case of what went wrong.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by revelations


They are actually making the city money writing tickets, so yes, that time is considered productive ..... esp towards month end quotas (which I have never agreed with)

Ah, so you are rationing the unethical conduct, by stating the primary purpose of police is to generate income.

I disagree.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by Seth1968


"Maybe" your biased?

Another perspective.... maybe Phil is honest and logical and the proper example of what we'd like our law enforcement, in its current form, to be.

My main disagreement with most Policing ends at the safety masquerade that is revenue generation and/or limiting freedoms. Bias is a broad term, obviously there is a bias of sorts applied to his response but it's an educated one. It may be knowledge of a system you don't fundamentally agree with but it's a balanced knowledge. Should I require or encounter an officer in a necessary situation I would hope it to be someone like Phil and you should too. How he represents his chosen career here is how I assume he practices it, responsibly and with insight and consideration.

I feel when Phil weighs in on policing his comments should be given the same thoughtfulness and I don't mind being called naive for it.

.02

[revelations]

Originally posted by Gestalt
Ah, so you are rationing the unethical conduct, by stating the primary purpose of police is to generate income.
I disagree.

Im not saying I approve of quotas and then filling those up with BS tickets at the end of each month - but how is it unethical to give out tickets to those breaking the law ?

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by revelations



**PHIL *** My question is: were these people arrestable and if so, why not just handcuff them and escort/walk/cart them out?

Too bad the entire process wasnt captured (or released) for proper viewing. Compare this to the YVR Taser event, where the ENTIRE arrival of the RCMP, to the CEW use, to the post event actions, were all covered on video and served an extremely clear case of what went wrong.

I'm not sure what the BC version of TPA or PTA is, so not sure - but undoubtedly they have something similar that contains warrantless arrest powers. However, like any arrest it would have to be articulable and justifiable, and perhaps these folks did comply until they didn't and at that point, instead of cuffing them were forcibly removed since they seemed to be pretty close to the door anyways... which as you know from your experience, is one of the reasons for arrest in preventing continuation of the offence, so maybe that was the approach on this?

Again, who knows. Just my two bits.

[revelations]

^ clearly a disturb-the-peace, arrestable offense

(who wants the paper work though)

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Gestalt


You are telling me, you can imagine a circumstance where you would drag an 80 year old persons down the stairs like show in the video?

I've played every scenario in my head. Kicking me in the balls, spitting on me, trying to give me a blow job etc.

I cannot fathom an instance of circumstance where I would lower myself to the level required to mistreat an 80 year old person like that.

It actually turns my stomach that so many here think that anything can justify that level of brutality.

You speak like a 15 year old with opinion. That's cute.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Gestalt


You are telling me, you can imagine a circumstance where you would drag an 80 year old persons down the stairs like show in the video?

I've played every scenario in my head. Kicking me in the balls, spitting on me, trying to give me a blow job etc.

I cannot fathom an instance of circumstance where I would lower myself to the level required to mistreat an 80 year old person like that.

It actually turns my stomach that so many here think that anything can justify that level of brutality.

He doth proclaim from Mt. Sanctimonious.

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


Another perspective.... maybe Phil is honest and logical and the proper example of what we'd like our law enforcement, in its current form, to be.

My main disagreement with most Policing ends at the safety masquerade that is revenue generation and/or limiting freedoms. Bias is a broad term, obviously there is a bias of sorts applied to his response but it's an educated one. It may be knowledge of a system you don't fundamentally agree with but it's a balanced knowledge. Should I require or encounter an officer in a necessary situation I would hope it to be someone like Phil and you should too. How he represents his chosen career here is how I assume he practices it, responsibly and with insight and consideration.

I feel when Phil weighs in on policing his comments should be given the same thoughtfulness and I don't mind being called naive for it.

.02

Thank you.

[Ben]

Phil,

One thing I learned years ago when I got out of IT and into Law Enforcement is when you're right no one remembers and when you're wrong no one forgets.

It's so frustrating to see in todays day and age how social media and smart phones have made everyone a chief investigator, and are quick to judge actions of a 20 second clip.

It reminds me of a video I saw on a news station a couple years ago in the US about a bystander capturing the horrific beating of a poor black, I mean urban, male by two white police officers somewhere in the south, might have been TN or FL. Anyways, for a week or so the media and all those activists shit all over the police department calling for their badges and making threats etc etc. It was bad. This was before the whole BLM thing really got going.

The chief, a black man himself finally said fuck it and released the dash and body cams of the officers to the media. Shows them responding to a violent armed robbery, followed by a vehicle pursuit, and then the urban male assailant attacks the female officer once the car is stopped. That's where the bystander starts recording, when the cops take him down and struggle with him to get him into cuffs etc. Well the media and the special interest groups all of a sudden went silent and this story faded into the dark never to be talked about again....except by many law enforcement agencies around the globe, on how public perception and availability of smart phones can skew public opinion.

I don't pretend that there are not good examples of excessive use of force, and I don't pretend that there isn't 3 sides to every story. I don't pretend to know how to handle every single scenario that I see and I don't pretend the public will understand. I don't expect the entire public to like Law Enforcement, hell, I have a cousin that I don't talk to anymore because he said he cant respect me because of what I do for work and wishes harm on all people in Law Enforcement.

I do however get tired of the constant generalization of the brutish Neanderthal officer that got picked on in school and has rage issues, and cops suck and all are useless and are over paid and serve and collect and etc etc etc. Everyone on the internet and social media is a professional and knows the perfect play. Jesus I have enough people sitting at a desk in Ottawa that have never remotely come close to working in Law Enforcement that scrutinize every file, report and incident, camera footage etc etc that feel they know how to do my job better than me because they have a situation management model and every incident has a scripted response and outcome.

Try figuring out how to stop a guy humanely that has HEP C and is HIV Positive and high on meth and of course, like every incident this days suffers from a generalized mental illness who has cut his wrist and is trying to spray and splatter blood at you on purpose. Cutting down someone who has freshly hung themselves and doing CPR for nearly 2 hours covered in pretty much every fluid imaginable just to have them die anyways waiting on STARS. Telling the wife and two young children that showed up on fathers day that their dad had just been murdered. there's so many ways to handle situations that arise that sometimes time and circumstances just don't permit. Sometimes you just say fuck it and roll with it. Sometimes you make the wrong decision, however the amount of training that goes into the policing and law enforcement agencies in Canada is actually well above standard in the developed world, and as Phil mentioned, the amount of successful calls versus negligent ones is such a minute percentage, but 99.99999% of the good calls never make the news, but 99.99999% of the bad ones sure do.

How about getting a call from a woman who comes home as a surprize with their newborn that got a day pass from the children's hospital because hes deathly ill from birth, and she finds her husband home drunk, with a blow up doll masturbating to child pornography and then has to fight off said man because he begins assaulting her for finding that? Jesus, it gets really old hearing about how all police do is write tickets. Yeah, I personally would rather write tickets than try and console a crying hysterical mother in that situation and then log all the fucking child porn into evidence. And go through the months and years of court proceedings for it. How disrespectful to all the men and women that see the ultimate horrors of society every single day and then get painted with the broad brush of basically "FTP!"

I'm not going to say what these officers did was right or wrong, as I don't have the whole situation. On a policy side, the use of chemical agents such as pepper spray comes before hands on use of force if time and circumstances permit. Could you imagine if they pepper sprayed these geriatrics first, which is a lesser use of force and they would be legally allowed to do so, than going hands on? People would be even more blown away I guarantee it. I've had people go compliantly and then all of a sudden go limp and drop to the floor like a toddler having a hissy fit and turtling or planking out or just going completely dead weight. They had long since blown their chances and warnings and you have to just pick them up. I don't have the time of a stay at home mom to give 400 empty threats and give them time outs and take away their ipad or walker. There is a finite amount of time before it's basically; tell the ignorant person that they will get twisted up if they don't comply NOW. I have enough shit to do in a 12 hour day that I cant devote precious time to renegotiating and playing the role of mom and dad. So I can potentially understand why they were dragged. It looks bad, but I also don't see the resistant person screaming in pain and bleeding profusely or as Toma stated, "Brutality" But without knowing the whole event from start to finish, I feel it is not reasonable to make a conclusion at this time.

Ultimately, I don't care if people hate what I do. I have a lot of days off to erase the horrific things I get to see on a regular basis and I travel a lot, pretty much whenever where ever and however I like. I pay a massive amount into my yearly pension (no, we don't all get these incredible pensions for free, I pay in over 700 dollars a cheque, only the elite in Ottawa get those beauty full pensions, I get 50% after 25 years hahaha, what a joke) and I know I did my job each and every day professionally and legally and safely. I haven't been paid properly since February because even our own government cant pay its first responders and they still missed their deadline to pay us by Halloween, so I've done my job for either free, or at 60% pay for nearly 10 months that I will have to fight to get recovered in its entirety. And yet I still get up and go so that people who have no idea what this job is like can sit and criticise anyone in law enforcement from the comfort of your own home.

So remember, if you don't appreciate being told how to do your job by someone who doesn't do it, remember, don't even think about doing the same to others. It's quite hypocritical.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Ben
Phil.... [snip]

.

POTY!!

Well said!

[Seth1968]

Except in this particular situation, many (including myself), would say there is no need to know what happened before. It's a frail old man posing no threat to the cops. There's 2 other cops only a few feet away. So again I ask, why not get one of the other cops to grab the seniors arms, while the other grabs his legs, and they carry him down the stairs?

[bjstare]

Originally posted by Seth1968
Except in this particular situation, many (including myself), would say there is no need to know what happened before. It's a frail old man posing no threat to the cops. There's 2 other cops only a few feet away. So again I ask, why not get one of the other cops to grab the seniors arms, while the other grabs his legs, and they carry him down the stairs?

Is there not more risk there? What if he thrashes a bit, causing one or both officers to lose their grasp (or footing). Next thing you know he falls to the floor and tumbles down the stairs. Or bumps his head. Or...blah blah blah. Carrying him down a set of stairs has way more risk, IMO.

I think the actions they took were fine

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by cjblair


Is there not more risk there? What if he thrashes a bit, causing one or both officers to lose their grasp (or footing). Next thing you know he falls to the floor and tumbles down the stairs. Or bumps his head. Or...blah blah blah. Carrying him down a set of stairs has way more risk, IMO.

I think the actions they took were fine

Either way, it will interesting to see what the investigation results in.

[962 kid]

Originally posted by Seth1968
Except in this particular situation, many (including myself), would say there is no need to know what happened before. It's a frail old man posing no threat to the cops. There's 2 other cops only a few feet away. So again I ask, why not get one of the other cops to grab the seniors arms, while the other grabs his legs, and they carry him down the stairs?

Pretty sure you're the dude that left an unconscious woman at the side of the road in a wrecked car and tried to defend it? What on earth are you doing here commenting on the decision making abilities of others?

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Ben
Phil,

One thing I learned years ago when I got out of IT and into Law Enforcement is when you're right no one remembers and when you're wrong no one forgets.

It's so frustrating to see in todays day and age how social media and smart phones have made everyone a chief investigator, and are quick to judge actions of a 20 second clip.

It reminds me of a video I saw on a news station a couple years ago in the US about a bystander capturing the horrific beating of a poor black, I mean urban, male by two white police officers somewhere in the south, might have been TN or FL. Anyways, for a week or so the media and all those activists shit all over the police department calling for their badges and making threats etc etc. It was bad. This was before the whole BLM thing really got going.

The chief, a black man himself finally said fuck it and released the dash and body cams of the officers to the media. Shows them responding to a violent armed robbery, followed by a vehicle pursuit, and then the urban male assailant attacks the female officer once the car is stopped. That's where the bystander starts recording, when the cops take him down and struggle with him to get him into cuffs etc. Well the media and the special interest groups all of a sudden went silent and this story faded into the dark never to be talked about again....except by many law enforcement agencies around the globe, on how public perception and availability of smart phones can skew public opinion.

I don't pretend that there are not good examples of excessive use of force, and I don't pretend that there isn't 3 sides to every story. I don't pretend to know how to handle every single scenario that I see and I don't pretend the public will understand. I don't expect the entire public to like Law Enforcement, hell, I have a cousin that I don't talk to anymore because he said he cant respect me because of what I do for work and wishes harm on all people in Law Enforcement.

I do however get tired of the constant generalization of the brutish Neanderthal officer that got picked on in school and has rage issues, and cops suck and all are useless and are over paid and serve and collect and etc etc etc. Everyone on the internet and social media is a professional and knows the perfect play. Jesus I have enough people sitting at a desk in Ottawa that have never remotely come close to working in Law Enforcement that scrutinize every file, report and incident, camera footage etc etc that feel they know how to do my job better than me because they have a situation management model and every incident has a scripted response and outcome.

Try figuring out how to stop a guy humanely that has HEP C and is HIV Positive and high on meth and of course, like every incident this days suffers from a generalized mental illness who has cut his wrist and is trying to spray and splatter blood at you on purpose. Cutting down someone who has freshly hung themselves and doing CPR for nearly 2 hours covered in pretty much every fluid imaginable just to have them die anyways waiting on STARS. Telling the wife and two young children that showed up on fathers day that their dad had just been murdered. there's so many ways to handle situations that arise that sometimes time and circumstances just don't permit. Sometimes you just say fuck it and roll with it. Sometimes you make the wrong decision, however the amount of training that goes into the policing and law enforcement agencies in Canada is actually well above standard in the developed world, and as Phil mentioned, the amount of successful calls versus negligent ones is such a minute percentage, but 99.99999% of the good calls never make the news, but 99.99999% of the bad ones sure do.

How about getting a call from a woman who comes home as a surprize with their newborn that got a day pass from the children's hospital because hes deathly ill from birth, and she finds her husband home drunk, with a blow up doll masturbating to child pornography and then has to fight off said man because he begins assaulting her for finding that? Jesus, it gets really old hearing about how all police do is write tickets. Yeah, I personally would rather write tickets than try and console a crying hysterical mother in that situation and then log all the fucking child porn into evidence. And go through the months and years of court proceedings for it. How disrespectful to all the men and women that see the ultimate horrors of society every single day and then get painted with the broad brush of basically "FTP!"

I'm not going to say what these officers did was right or wrong, as I don't have the whole situation. On a policy side, the use of chemical agents such as pepper spray comes before hands on use of force if time and circumstances permit. Could you imagine if they pepper sprayed these geriatrics first, which is a lesser use of force and they would be legally allowed to do so, than going hands on? People would be even more blown away I guarantee it. I've had people go compliantly and then all of a sudden go limp and drop to the floor like a toddler having a hissy fit and turtling or planking out or just going completely dead weight. They had long since blown their chances and warnings and you have to just pick them up. I don't have the time of a stay at home mom to give 400 empty threats and give them time outs and take away their ipad or walker. There is a finite amount of time before it's basically; tell the ignorant person that they will get twisted up if they don't comply NOW. I have enough shit to do in a 12 hour day that I cant devote precious time to renegotiating and playing the role of mom and dad. So I can potentially understand why they were dragged. It looks bad, but I also don't see the resistant person screaming in pain and bleeding profusely or as Toma stated, "Brutality" But without knowing the whole event from start to finish, I feel it is not reasonable to make a conclusion at this time.

Ultimately, I don't care if people hate what I do. I have a lot of days off to erase the horrific things I get to see on a regular basis and I travel a lot, pretty much whenever where ever and however I like. I pay a massive amount into my yearly pension (no, we don't all get these incredible pensions for free, I pay in over 700 dollars a cheque, only the elite in Ottawa get those beauty full pensions, I get 50% after 25 years hahaha, what a joke) and I know I did my job each and every day professionally and legally and safely. I haven't been paid properly since February because even our own government cant pay its first responders and they still missed their deadline to pay us by Halloween, so I've done my job for either free, or at 60% pay for nearly 10 months that I will have to fight to get recovered in its entirety. And yet I still get up and go so that people who have no idea what this job is like can sit and criticise anyone in law enforcement from the comfort of your own home.

So remember, if you don't appreciate being told how to do your job by someone who doesn't do it, remember, don't even think about doing the same to others. It's quite hypocritical.

And I'm the sanctimonious one.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Either way, it will interesting to see what the investigation results in.

My bet is nothing, as has become the norm south of the border, and spreading here.

No accountability, how dare we question, or expect standards and professionalism.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Gestalt
No accountability, how dare we question, or expect standards and professionalism.

What TV shows have you been watching?

Perhaps the ones that don't show where members in Canada have been canned, convicted criminally, demoted, assigned desk duty, etc. For eg. I can cite former Cst. MANTLER of the Kelowna RCMP who kicked a compliant subject in the face. He was canned and charged with assault. What about the "fab 4" CPS members who (presumably) Rodney Kinged a subject whose crime was running away from a traffic stop, which was all caught on a dash cam cruiser. Some of those members will face serious (assault causing?) charges and some probably dismissed.

You have ZERO CLUE as to the size of the microscope that LEOs in Canada are under. From the public, peers, superiors, government and direct oversight agencies.

The Americans operate under a COMPLETELY different mindset and laws for Police.

Did you know that (Oklahoma, I think) the police can pull you over, merely suspect you of being a criminal and demand your debit card, drain your entire bank accounts as "proceeds of crime" - all from the side of the road?

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by revelations


What TV shows have you been watching?

Perhaps the ones that don't show where members in Canada have been canned, convicted criminally, demoted, assigned desk duty, etc. For eg. I can cite former Cst. MANTLER of the Kelowna RCMP who kicked a compliant subject in the face. He was canned and charged with assault. What about the "fab 4" CPS members who (presumably) Rodney Kinged a subject whose crime was running away from a traffic stop, which was all caught on a dash cam cruiser. Some of those members will face serious (assault causing?) charges and some probably dismissed.

You have ZERO CLUE as to the size of the microscope that LEOs in Canada are under. From the public, peers, superiors, government and direct oversight agencies.

The Americans operate under a COMPLETELY different mindset and laws for Police.

Did you know that (Oklahoma, I think) the police can pull you over, merely suspect you of being a criminal and demand your debit card, drain your entire bank accounts as "proceeds of crime" - all from the side of the road?

No. Haven't heard the debit card thing. Link?