Coquitlam RCMP investigating after 2 seniors dragged.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
For Buddha's sake just doesn't have the same blasphemous ring to it.

I don't have the time (nor solar energy) to reply to that wit.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Majestic12
The average cop makes between 100-125k annually. Where's this 100's of dollars coming from? A supervisor has extra paperwork to do? Oh no! Also, who said they were there for hours? Sounds to me like you're exaggerating what happened and what it costs just to prove your point.

Even if that's the case, let me ask you this -- do you want things done fast and cheap, or do you want them done right?

Again, shows how far removed you are from the processes. I have not been in the game for a long time either - but I do know the costs for policing are not cheap. Its not just the guys on scene, there are fees for 911 dispatch, vehicles, support staff etc. For eg. the RCMP in Richmond bill around 180,000$ annually for ONE member. Having 3-4 guys standing around is piss poor use of public resources that could be put to better use elsewhere.

Imagine you're at the scene here when a call comes about a domestic where a male is beating up his wife - and you're the closest unit. Sorry - send someone else because I am tied up with discussing high level ethics and psychology to some shithead who refused to listen earlier. The media will then report that a woman was beaten half to death in a domestic because the police response time was too slow.


If one shithead refuses to leave after being asked politely on numerous occasions your options are to increase the level of force proportionally. No hard weapons, OC spray / taser were used in this event. Had a second RCMP member come in and used force to remove that person from holding the railing (and then carried then down the stairs), you would have accused them of brutality and causing injury.

While there are bad cops and certainly local examples of police brutality - this is not it.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by revelations


Again, shows how far removed you are from the processes. I have not been in the game for a long time either - but I do know the costs for policing are not cheap. Its not just the guys on scene, there are fees for 911 dispatch, vehicles, etc. For eg. the RCMP in Richmond bill around 180,000$ annually for ONE member. Having 3-4 guys standing around is piss poor use of public resources that could be put to better use elsewhere.
...

If one shithead refuses to leave after being asked politely on numerous occasions your options are to increase the level of force proportionally. No hard weapons, OC spray / taser were used in this event. Had a second RCMP member come in and used force to remove that person from holding the railing (and then carried then down the stairs), you would have accused them of brutality and causing injury.

While there are bad cops and certainly local examples of police brutality - this is not it.

Nobody said policing was cheap. But they're there to serve as public servants. That includes tasks as mundane as writing traffic tickets, following up on hypersensitive 9-1-1 callers, and taking care of unruly seniors. Whether there are other emergent situations elsewhere is irrelevant. At the time, the police officers' responsibilities were to deal with the dispute in front of them.

If one shithead refuses to leave after being asked politely on numerous occasions, yes, the best option is to increase the level of force PROPORTIONALLY. So in your eyes, step 1. ask them to leave. step 2. drag them out along the ground? Seriously? You can't think of something in between those two options that would be suitable and achieve the same result?

[Majestic12]

And by the way, your earlier claim of police costing "100's of dollars an hour" and $180k annually doesn't work out. Because $180k a year ends up at about $90 per hour at a rate of 2000 working hours per year.

[revelations]

Originally posted by revelations
Its not just the guys on scene, there are fees for 911 dispatch, vehicle costs, support staff, etc.

Originally posted by Majestic12
And by the way, your earlier claim of police costing "100's of dollars an hour" and $180k annually doesn't work out. Because $180k a year ends up at about $90 per hour at a rate of 2000 working hours per year.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by Majestic12


Sure. Have two or more people carry someone out rather than dragging them on the ground. Done. Nobody has their head and limbs banging against the floor and walls.

Ok, this is a fair statement. It certainly would have been a kinder, gentler way of doing it that probably would have been more appropriate.

Yet, the fact remains that forceful removal was instigated by the actions of the couple. Had they just cooperated, there would be no discussion for us to have.

[Majestic12]

Ok fair enough. Let's double it then. $180/hr. Hell, let's triple that. Call it $540 per hour.

So as a taxpayer, I personally would rather have my taxes go towards an extra $540 per hour to have one more police officer on scene to be able to carry someone out rather than drag them out in a potentially dangerous fashion. If it comes down to it, if they suffered any sorts of injuries, the resulting lawsuit would cost a hell of a lot more than $540.

edit: derpy math

[phil98z24]

How do any of us know what happened between the time of the initial call to the time they were dragged out? Maybe they willingly walked out with police until they got to the stairs, then decided to passively resist and refuse to go any further? Perhaps they didn't need to carry anyone out until that point? I've had it happen to me before when people decide to go until they don't, then drop to the ground as dead weight and refuse to go. I'm not going to use pain compliance and other techniques because that isn't proportional, so I've resorted to pulling someone along. As much as it looks like crap, it doesn't usually cause serious, if any, bodily harm.

People aren't as frail and prone to breakage as you may think they are, and until you've had to deal with people from all walks of life, ages, etc, on a daily basis and can actually experience it from my side, I'd understand why you may think otherwise.

As far as having all the time in the world, etc, you may think that police have all the time in the world to do things and work through every situation. There are limits, and the Supreme Court agrees, to how much time police need to give people to comply especially when there is potential for violence or ongoing breach of the peace - and the fact is, you don't have a right to ignore police demands. There is a time and place to disagree with it, but that isn't it. Sometimes it comes down to having to do things that look ugly in order to fulfill our duty to keep the peace and maintain order, whether that's very minor or extreme.

Again, not saying they did things right here - but we don't know everything that happened up to that point and maybe that was the absolute last resort, which most of the time is usually when people get offended and the video starts rolling.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by phil98z24
How do any of us know what happened between the time of the initial call to the time they were dragged out? Maybe they willingly walked out with police until they got to the stairs, then decided to passively resist and refuse to go any further? Perhaps they didn't need to carry anyone out until that point? I've had it happen to me before when people decide to go until they don't, then drop to the ground as dead weight and refuse to go. I'm not going to use pain compliance and other techniques because that isn't proportional, so I've resorted to pulling someone along. As much as it looks like crap, it doesn't usually cause serious, if any, bodily harm.

People aren't as frail and prone to breakage as you may think they are, and until you've had to deal with people from all walks of life, ages, etc, on a daily basis and can actually experience it from my side, I'd understand why you may think otherwise.

As far as having all the time in the world, etc, you may think that police have all the time in the world to do things and work through every situation. There are limits, and the Supreme Court agrees, to how much time police need to give people to comply especially when there is potential for violence or ongoing breach of the peace - and the fact is, you don't have a right to ignore police demands. There is a time and place to disagree with it, but that isn't it. Sometimes it comes down to having to do things that look ugly in order to fulfill our duty to keep the peace and maintain order, whether that's very minor or extreme.

Again, not saying they did things right here - but we don't know everything that happened up to that point and maybe that was the absolute last resort, which most of the time is usually when people get offended and the video starts rolling.

"Maybe" your biased?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Gestalt


Let me slow it down. There was no bomb, no guns.

There
is
nothing
an
80
year
old
could
do
to
me
that
would
justify
dragging
them
down
the
stairs
like
that

First an expert on running a business, and now an expert on policing.

Is there no end to your infnite wisdom and experience?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Seth1968


"Maybe" your biased?

Or maybe, just maybe he's a person trained and eperienced in police work and dealing with subjects, and actually knows what's he talking about here. Unlike the armchair warriors whose sole experience in dealing with subduing people is what they've seen on TV. You know....SJW's.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by phil98z24

.. until you've had to deal with people from all walks of life, ages, etc, on a daily basis and can actually experience it from my side, I'd understand why you may think otherwise.

I'm not a cop, but I deal with people of all walks of life, ages, etc. on a daily basis that have been legitimately injured some ways that you would never really expect or predict.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Majestic12
Ok fair enough. Let's double it then. $180/hr. Hell, let's triple that. Call it $540 per hour.

So as a taxpayer, I personally would rather have my taxes go towards an extra $540 per hour to have one more police officer on scene to be able to carry someone out rather than drag them out in a potentially dangerous fashion. If it comes down to it, if they suffered any sorts of injuries, the resulting lawsuit would cost a hell of a lot more than $540.

edit: derpy math

Thats not how the real world works unfortunately. Cities have strict budgets and the cops are under that (and many other) microscope already. Lawsuits happen all the time but many are frivolous and are dismissed.

The public officials will demand to know why costs of policing has gone up and may switch to a municipal force if, for eg. the RCMP do this.

Until you have worked either with or as a first responder, you will never understand what really happens out there (in the city) on an average Friday night shift.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Seth1968


"Maybe" your biased?

Where is my bias here? I have said repeatedly I don't agree or disagree, just offering up some opinion based on experience and my training, and saying to hold off on rendering judgement on this.

You automatically jump to me seeing it one side or the other because you, by and large, disagree with anything the police/government do, so anytime anyone says anything speaking from their perspective you conclude it's some biased opinion.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by revelations


Lawsuits happen all the time but many are frivolous and are dismissed.

Actually, this is one case where it would be VERY interesting to hear why there were multiple officers there, but only one "carrying" each person at a time. Most definitely not frivolous. And most definitely not one that would be so easily dismissed.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Majestic12


I'm not a cop, but I deal with people of all walks of life, ages, etc. on a daily basis that have been legitimately injured some ways that you would never really expect or predict.

Ok, so let's talk about that since we aren't going to address the rest of this.

I've seen the same thing, but I can't predict to a nicety what the end result of my actions will be, nor can I assume anything I do will cause a certain thing to happen - outside of shooting a person or striking them in the head with a baton, for example. Fear of the unknown and any manner of results from use of minor force shouldn't stop the police from using it, and doesn't change this idea of proportionality you speak of.

Again, you don't know what happened to lead up to that decision to drag this person around, so at this point how can you say that person didn't do something that required what you're seeing on this very short video? Perhaps that senior exhibited physical capabilities and behaviours that required a decision to use some type of force to get compliance? Maybe they didn't and these guys used excessive force? Who knows?

What I'm saying is: people need to stop looking at this so black and white, because it often times isn't.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by phil98z24


Ok, so let's talk about that since we aren't going to address the rest of this.

I've seen the same thing, but I can't predict to a nicety what the end result of my actions will be, nor can I assume anything I do will cause a certain thing to happen - outside of shooting a person or striking them in the head with a baton, for example. Fear of the unknown and any manner of results from use of minor force shouldn't stop the police from using it, and doesn't change this idea of proportionality you speak of.

Again, you don't know what happened to lead up to that decision to drag this person around, so at this point how can you say that person didn't do something that required what you're seeing on this very short video? Perhaps that senior exhibited physical capabilities and behaviours that required a decision to use some type of force to get compliance? Maybe they didn't and these guys used excessive force? Who knows?

What I'm saying is: people need to stop looking at this so black and white, because it often times isn't.

That may very well be the case -- but that goes both ways. You can't excuse the police fully either, at least until more facts come out. But from what I've read about this incident, there haven't been any allegations that the two seniors were attacking the police or were some kind of physical threat that needed to be removed immediately. If this WAS an emergent situation, I am pretty confident that info would have made its way to the public by now. From what I know, it's basically a condo board meeting that went awry, with people getting heated, with a possible scuffle.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Majestic12


That may very well be the case -- but that goes both ways. You can't excuse the police fully either, at least until more facts come out. But from what I've read about this incident, there haven't been any allegations that the two seniors were attacking the police or were some kind of physical threat that needed to be removed immediately. If this WAS an emergent situation, I am pretty confident that info would have made its way to the public by now. From what I know, it's basically a condo board meeting that went awry, with people getting heated, with a possible scuffle.

Edit: I have to add that I appreciate those who are approaching this in a rational and respectful manner (including you). I like to give my perspective without it becoming a personal attack on me or automatically dismissing me because of the work I do.

I fully agree it works both ways, but I'm not fully excusing them. I'm offering up plausible explanations for their actions, and have even said we can't say if it was right or wrong. You may think more information would have come to light by now, but you'd also be amazed at the information people will withhold about these types of things, especially when it's an active investigation.

Having been on that side of the tape a number of times, I can say with confidence that most of the time the public doesn't hear but a fraction of what actually occurred. We just don't know what happened yet.

As far as this being emergent, it doesn't have to be emergent for police to use force. Most of the time I use force, there is nothing emergent happening but has come to the point where it's required or the only available option. Further more, imminent breaches of the peace and stopping a disturbance from continuing are common law duties and legislated duties of the police, and to not prevent that is neglect of duty and unlawful. Sometimes we are simply obligated to act, and we don't know what led to those members taking action. Bear in mind that not everything needs to be demonstrated violence or ongoing to be considered worthy of police intervention.

They did respond to a meeting where people were reported to be fighting, at least according to the media, and that's about all we really know aside from this couple allegedly being a part of that. I think everyone needs to step back and wait until we know everything.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

First an expert on running a business, and now an expert on policing.

Is there no end to your infnite wisdom and experience?

You are telling me, you can imagine a circumstance where you would drag an 80 year old persons down the stairs like show in the video?

I've played every scenario in my head. Kicking me in the balls, spitting on me, trying to give me a blow job etc.

I cannot fathom an instance of circumstance where I would lower myself to the level required to mistreat an 80 year old person like that.

It actually turns my stomach that so many here think that anything can justify that level of brutality.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by revelations


Thats not how the real world works unfortunately. Cities have strict budgets and the cops are under that (and many other) microscope already. Lawsuits happen all the time but many are frivolous and are dismissed.

The public officials will demand to know why costs of policing has gone up and may switch to a municipal force if, for eg. the RCMP do this.

Until you have worked either with or as a first responder, you will never understand what really happens out there (in the city) on an average Friday night shift.

Cops time is valuable. There are speeding tickets and j walking tickets so write.