SL55 w/ M113k in Calgary for quick help?

[whatthe]

Just trying to help out a friend of a friend set up stand alone on an M113k from an SL55 that he's put into an older C chassis...

I've grabbed the basics of the cam/crank sensors and triggers now, and going through bunch of other details, but some base logs would go a long way to simplifying the process.

any chance someone local has done some logs on their SL55 and have some files kicking around? I'd suggest we go for a drive with my laptop and I buy you some lunch, but I'm pretty well on the outside of the Mercedes scene.

[whatthe]

Anybody work at a Benz shop or dealer?

Even an oscilloscope of the cam and crank signals would help out a great deal. From what I can tell it has a 3 wire cam sensor, and 2 wire crank sensor. The crank triggers and sensors have same part numbers to a lot of their V8s so I would imagine some similarities.

[rage2]

Doubt you'll have any luck here, or anywhere for that matter. The last time I read about someone trying to get this engine running in a swap on mbworld, and this was something like 3 or 4 years ago, they ditched the idea after spending way too much money and never got it working, and ended up ditching it for a LS swap. I know it doesn't sound encouraging, just want you to set the expectations.

I'll try to dig up the thread when I get a chance, but IIRC the number of sensors needs to be used to actually run the engine properly was staggering. They also tried using the stock ECU but ran into a whole bunch of problems with ESP and transmission integration (they had swapped to a MT). The only success stories comes from running the OEM ECU on a paired automatic transmission.

[RLK]

Originally posted by whatthe
Anybody work at a Benz shop or dealer?

Even an oscilloscope of the cam and crank signals would help out a great deal. From what I can tell it has a 3 wire cam sensor, and 2 wire crank sensor. The crank triggers and sensors have same part numbers to a lot of their V8s so I would imagine some similarities.

If you need the cam/crank wave forms. Why don't you hook a scope up to the sensors, crank the engine and save them. The crank sensor is a basic ac analog signal, and the cam is a hall effect digital signal.

How old is this c class? have you tied the stand alone into the vehicle network?

[whatthe]

Originally posted by rage2
Doubt you'll have any luck here, or anywhere for that matter. The last time I read about someone trying to get this engine running in a swap on mbworld, and this was something like 3 or 4 years ago, they ditched the idea after spending way too much money and never got it working, and ended up ditching it for a LS swap. I know it doesn't sound encouraging, just want you to set the expectations.

I'll try to dig up the thread when I get a chance, but IIRC the number of sensors needs to be used to actually run the engine properly was staggering. They also tried using the stock ECU but ran into a whole bunch of problems with ESP and transmission integration (they had swapped to a MT). The only success stories comes from running the OEM ECU on a paired automatic transmission.

Yah, definitely expect a challenge here. There have been a couple of build threads on club202 and mbworld now where some guys have managed to get M113 swap running and one guy on the M113k apparently. The M113 is easy enough with the right parts, the M113k not as much with all the wiring/ecu requirements as you note. It doesn’t help that Mercedes basically coded the keys to a few modules including each ECU and apparently the dealer can’t even re-code that.

I think worst case it will have to go race car mode on some of the other integration. Albeit a giant PITA, there are a few aftermarket ECUS that can control the drive by wire throttle, electronic trans, supercharger clutch, traction control, etc. these days. I can remove the steering lock and turn wheel and get signal lights/and such on the car now without ECU, which was one of my biggest concerns. The engine/trans side I think can be worked around.

First step though, I’d like to send some signal data to the maker of the ECU and make sure that they can build some firmware suited for the stock sensors, coils,etc.

Originally posted by RLK

If you need the cam/crank wave forms. Why don't you hook a scope up to the sensors, crank the engine and save them. The crank sensor is a basic ac analog signal, and the cam is a hall effect digital signal.

How old is this c class? have you tied the stand alone into the vehicle network?

The base shell is a 99 C43 AMG, so already has CAN bus ‘magic’. Ideally, the owner would have left the stock ECU in place, but he sold his stock ECU, and TCU, and I have an SL55 ECU, and a different TCM. Which is what is leading me to an ECU that could run all these things independently.

The engine is in the vehicle but unfinished on the accessories… i.e. even before I crank this thing over, would have to take care of oil lines running to nowhere, etc.. A running car would really simplify the process of determining offset, index position, etc. and confirming how the ECU is using the signals while the rest of the mechanical items are sorted (fuel pump/s, trans wiring, driveshaft, etc.etc.).

[rage2]

This is one of the success stories with a 55K swap:

http://mbworld.org/forums/w219/37243...installed.html

Using OEM ECUs. The guy that did the coding is here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/rudy-compart-b20b3a7

I would talk to this guy and stick with OEM ECUs and TCUs to save you a ton of time and money. There are direct flights between YYC and ORD when it's time to do the actual coding.

From his linked in profile, I'd say he's probably the only guy on this continent that can get it sorted out based on the scope of your project with the least amount of pain. The only other company that I've seen pull off OEM swaps is GAD motors out of Germany, the guys that swapped in a CLS63S 4Matic drivetrain into a C63 Black Series.

edit - one more thing I want to add, I believe if you go with a standalone route, your dash won't work anymore. It all runs off canbus, and you'll pretty much need to build a new dashboard for it. Same with the stereo. Have to go full race car.

Keep us posted on the project and which direction you're going. Love to see big projects like this!

[whatthe]

Great find! I will definitely get in contact with him.

The cluster I figured would be something to work around with factory ECU, or aftermarket. Fuel gauge might be manual, but most other gauges are likely CAN bus. The guys who did the NA version of the swap were able to swap out parts of the cluster from CLK55 to get communication back. Also read things like rear windows won't work on 4 door swaps since the SL55 was 2 doors.

Hopefully coding guru will have some solutions for all of this as I definitely prefer OEM style integration on performance mods when possible. Whatever the case - race car way, or more OEM street car way, I'll let you know what direction this ends up taking.

[rage2]

Originally posted by whatthe
Whatever the case - race car way, or more OEM street car way, I'll let you know what direction this ends up taking.

I'd love to see it when it's done. 500hp and NASCAR torque in a W202 would be fucking hilarious.

[rage2]

Here's another find, it's been done before.

http://mbworld.org/forums/c36-amg-c4...3k-engine.html

But god damn, it looks like they swapped absolutely everything to get it to work.

[dj_rice]

Originally posted by rage2
Here's another find, it's been done before.

http://mbworld.org/forums/c36-amg-c4...3k-engine.html

But god damn, it looks like they swapped absolutely everything to get it to work.

Why's that one have 3 coolant tanks?

[rage2]

Originally posted by dj_rice
Why's that one have 3 coolant tanks?

We used to split the coolant tank specifically for the S/C to reduce heat soak since AMG Kompressor engines all use Air to Water intercoolers. OEM setup the coolant is shared between engine and S/C. I dunno what the 3rd one is for. Water/meth injection? haha

[whatthe]

Sent some messages out, will see if I get any responses back. I ended up stalking him on crossfire forum since he seems more active over there. Looks like he had a negative review on mbworld a while back, and doesn't seem like he posts much on there now. There was a guy was complaining that his ABS and such still didn't work.

Seems like he primarily does the de-coding. And the actual tune usually ends up from other companies.

The Kazakhsthan mafia C class is pretty sick, I could see all parts working on that one. Even the paddle shifters and a lot of that interior are for sure not stock.

Originally posted by dj_rice



Why's that one have 3 coolant tanks?

One for radiator overflow, second for supercharger air/water cooler separated from stock rad I suspect, and the third one is probably for vodka

Normally most of the volume for the supercharger air/water intercooler is in the cooler itself. But since these cars can go into limp mode based on temps, it looks like he's giving himself extra capacity. That or using one as ice tank possibly before a race... or running a third cooler for trans or oil or meth/water injection as rage says

[peter07r1]

Speedriven sells a standalone for m113k's

[whatthe]

Thanks Peter. I saw a thread saying that they use UK based Syvec ECU/components for somewhere north of 8k USD on one of their plug and play platforms. With the mix and mash here, I'm sure that would go up for them to figure out or work around. I found some other company in Estonia that had an aftermarket ECU done, but couldn't compensate for a lot things.

Other than that, I haven't heard back from the de-coding guru.

So this remains headed towards stand alone and trying to integrate what I can back. I'm used to and really like the ProEFI on my IS, so continuing along that path. Alpha at Induction Performance is a true guru in his own rights, and really just need to get him a scope of the sensors to make sure there would be no issues building up the specific firmware. I think even one of the base V8s may work as it looks like the flexplate, two plugs per cylinder, etc. matches even on some of the lower models.

For the wiring, spent some time on weekend trying to confirm what was in the car, and get diagrams that were at least close to the different harnesses. You nearly need to use an Enigma machine to decipher the German wiring/diagram abbreviations... .but once you know what a B28, B2/5, B6/1, B40, etc. is, it's not so bad.

[RLK]

Keep in mind the ecm does a lot more than just run the engine. The c43 has a high speed CAN, a medium speed CAN and a fiber optic MOST. All of these networks share and use information with each other. I think you need to start looking at the network logic and what it is programmed to do before you can start bypassing things around the ecm. As a example,you put the key in the ignition and go to start the engine. The key module sends a engine start signal to the theft/body module, the theft module confirms a proper key and a bunch of other stuff then sends a start signal to the ecm. The engine start signal is usually and encrypted message. At his point you have used two networks. If you try to by pass that you are going to run into things like the shifter not unlocking and the vehicle going into theft mode.
Everything from your horn to lights and wipers run through a network that you are disrupting. If it was me, I would keep the factory modules and find a automotive software engineer that is willing to break some digital locks. See if he can program the M113k ecm into the high speed CAN. This way you keep full vehicle functionality and don't have to wire in a bunch of hill billy shit.
Your c43 may be old, but the electronics and networking is kinda the standard for brand new vehicles that are being built today.

[rage2]

Forgot to post this up over the weekend, spent some time reading more into this and you'll have a lot of work on your hands. Basically, you'll have 2 options.

1. Go full race car with a standalone and figure out how to get the TCU to talk to the standalone. You'll also have to figure out how to get everything else to work, from HVAC to windows. Pretty much all functionality of the car because your ECU is out of the equation. Ridiculous amount of engineering work. It's doable, Speedhunter was able to do it with their standalone setup, but I doubt they'll give you the keys to the kingdom.

2. Use a factory ECU or Speedhunter PnP Standalone to do everything. Only problem here is the car and engine combination. The C43 wiring can handle a M113, but can not handle the M113K. Lots of additional wiring and sensors that's not there. The M113 swap is easy, pretty much all plug and play, then recode the ECU to get it to work together. I didn't know this when I suggested the Chicago guy.

This is the reason why the Kazakhstan guys swapped in everything from an E55K, from wiring harness, to steering wheel, to gauge cluster. It's the easiest path to a C43 with a M113K engine.

[peter07r1]

Actually ecuprogram in calgary might be a good technical resource you can try for local support. Miguel there is the tuner and partially mute. Emailing them and asking for him might get you closer to your goal, he's hard to communicate with in person due to his condition However, he does all the software programming/tuning in house so he'll likely have some answers for you. I hear he's the resident genius in terms of cracking ecu's for many different MB and BMW models.

These guys were recommended to me when I was looking for a tune for my E55 with the m113k.

PM me your facebook and I can invite you to a couple groups that might some answers as well.

[whatthe]

Ok, super long post/update.

I have or have had a lot of the same concerns. There are definitely challenges, but there appears to be a fair amount of function left. I’ve been reading through obscure links in the service manual, and taking stock of where the car is at now.

From reading the various service diagrams – it seems more an issue of most of the sensors in the car function in a 'normal' way and then also send their resulting info to one or potentially several other modules and advise them of their output. That module can then change it’s calculation and decide what to display or how to then control the end device. I.e. Even something that should be super simple like the outside temperature is described as being a CAN network related item - reporting back at intervals based on engine on time, or even coolant temp back from ECU, instead of simply just giving you the temperature. Buuuutt… there still seems to be a base function with a lot of these things and that complicated outside temp still displayed for me without the ECM as an example…

According to the service manual, the first steps with the ignition power relates back to having the correct key to the steering wheel control/ignition lock. The final check it does is confirming secret security key coded ECM and if something is amiss it won’t allow power to the starter and will then record a code in the ECM. It also essentially says the steering lock would not re-engage after the initial check… meaning from a safety perspective, if someone was driving down the road and ECM glitches out, that Mercedes would still allow the driver control of the wheel and such so as to not be a hazard on the road.

Right now what works without ECM: Ignition works to unlock the steering wheel, Signal lights work, headlights work, brake lights work, etc. Interior heater control goes on/off and changes modes, power seats still work, Accessory power stays on, I put the key in the door and turn it and all doors lock or unlock or lock, seats adjust and work, outside temp displays, etc. etc. all without any ECM feeding back to the CAN network at all. The deck is already aftermarket, but no idea what it is hooked up to. Center console is apart where window switches would be, so not sure on windows at the moment.

Sounds like there is an air pump not shutting off, but it’s -10 in my garage and could be an existing leak o hose off somewhere.

Big ticket items I believe will not work based on the service manual: speedometer(most likely to display 0 speed), tachometer, trans computer, ABS/trac/ etc..

Possible fixes for speedometer/tach – would be keeping and blending SL55 ECU and matching dash cluster components (huge work and effort as Rage mentions). Or perhaps something can be fed to satisfy the cluster (doubtful since calculations seem built into the cluster – i.e. it chooses which wheel speed sensor based on cornering, etc.). Other more race car-like option would be some sort of CAN gauge/logger like AiM or blending in proefis color display. Either of these displays I would consider an advance over stock as far as performance and relevant items go since you can display speed/rpm and any fuel pressure, oil pressure, knock level, ethanol content, differential wheel speed, etc. that you have matching sensor tied in for (up to 100 channels display on proEFI).


Transmission – will have to be controlled by ProEFI like Speedriven and their Syvec. All fans, supercharger clutch, fuel pump relay, ignition coils, injectors, starter control (start button can trigger defined start sequence through proEFI just like new cars), etc. is all doable with aftermarket ECU. Gone would be the limitations of 1-2% max differential wheel speed on the OEM traction control, gone would be invasive throttle being shut, customizable power and torque limitations, customizable launch abilities, etc.. And I can still set up safety logic for any engine parameter i.e. if fuel pressure drops, it will automatically increase injector pulsewidth, and only cut if it goes to what I say is lean. Long gone are the days of hill billy aftermarket ECUs.

What I don’t quite get at the moment is what speedriven is doing to satisfy the computer for ABS and such. I’m actually curious if Syvec is offering some kind of integration with the CAN outputs on their ECU…. Or maybe that is just Mercedes side programming being done. My feeling is that ABS is a more deeply rooted limitation when dealing with a swap and is something would require the likes of ecuprogram or similar… but will look more into this later.

As for the original problem of cam/crank signals… I have some basic function and details from the service manual now on max voltage, and even some base timing values. The rest I will need a quick confirmation that I will try to get while cranking when things are more buttoned up.

[RLK]

The reason why you cannot find much information about how company's or people have done these type of things is because it it illegal. Look up the Digital millennium act. That's why I was saying you are going to have to find a software guy that is willing to break digital locks. This is kind of like streaming off the internet, yes it is against the law but rarely enforced. A company is not going to go hey look at all of these laws we just broke.

Keep in mind every automotive manufacture wants it's own sandbox to play in and does not want the governments or enthusiasts fucking with there code. Go on efi live's website and read their stance on this, it's awesome.

I program and configure automotive modules every day with the appropriate factory scan tools, half of the time you just want to bang your head on the floor. What you are trying to accomplish is a large task, I applaud your effort and determination.

[whatthe]

If carmarkers had their way, it would be illegal for anyone to touch their own car I'm sure. I'll have to check out EFIlives comments

But regardless, measuring the cam/crank signal with an oscilloscope and posting it's result is not illegal and primarily what I'm after. Can't see how logging OEM software would be unless rules changed as I don't really care about how to 'hack' it.

The guy actually de-coding and re-coding may be on a slippery slope, but like you say, it's likely not enforced... or perhaps squeaking by on an exemption (there was one a year-ish or so ago I thought).