Push to pass

[speedog]

Push to pass option - something that both the Formula 1 and Indycar racing series have. School me as to why this option has come to be. Wikipedia explains as the system is designed to make overtaking easier and hence make the sport more exciting to watch but should not have any motor racing series done something else to encourage more close quarters and unpredictable racing. Take away aero?

To me a racing series means having 100% of your vehicle's capabilities available to you, as a driver, at all times - controlling when or where or how often a driver can have additional power seems to take away from the basic intent of racing.

[rage2]

in F1 there are limits of how much electrical energy can be used over a lap, as well as limits of how much fuel can be used through the race, so it’s a balancing act with engine modes to optimize power over a lap/race distance. With that said, drivers can access more fuel sapping modes to aid in passing, but suffer later on being marginal on fuel. There’s DRS which cuts aero if you’re close enough to minimize the effects of runnng in dirty air which I guess is a sort of push to pass.

Indycar handles it differently. You get extra power for X seconds through a race by increasing boost.

You answered your own question though on solution, take away aero and it won’t be needed. These things exist because of the inherent nature of aerodynamic downforce. Air is disturbed past a car where the following car is significantly disadvantaged. Without these aids, it would be nearly impossible to make any passes as seen in some eras of F1. Even with DRS you need to be a lot faster (roughly 1.5s on average) to actually make a pass so it’s not really a free pass. Without DRS that advantage needs to double.

Take away aero and the cars are a lot slower and less exciting. They’ll also be easier to drive at the limit. Doubt the top tier racing formulas want to go in that direction.

[speedog]

Even if they are easier to drive at the limit there will always be those few drivers who can push the envelope at little bit farther - those drivers can step into some else's car and just go faster in it.

[zhao]

Cool topic. I think rage summed up most of what i think, but i'll give you my take:

With amateur racing I find it easy enough to pass, even though I drive one of the lowest power to weight ratio cars (put it this way, a spec miata will pull away from me on a long course (they did anyway at the edmonton indy track and I have the same engine as I did then)). Technically its hard as fuck to pass with less hp because you have to not only blow their doors off in the corner, but stay ahead of them in the next straight, but its possible for me because:

- At castrol there are 2 spots that a good 80% of the field take the corners completely wrong and I can force a pass no problem. This is corner 4 and the kink, and even with cars with another 100hp+ on me i've been able to get by them here and make it stick down the next straight. Race city had corner 3 which most everyone got wrong as well, and the final hairpin. The indy track was tougher, basically involved out braking someone or drafting them down one of the 4000km straights.
- People fuck up in amateur racing so all I generally need to do is apply pressure and wait. Most people are not comfortable with someone 2 feet off thier bumper and will fuck up within a couple laps blowing a apex, where I can sneak in and scrape them off like a barnacle.
-Cars are very different in amateur racing even in the same class; mine is very low hp, but handles ok. There are some that are godlike all around (911 cup cars), and there some that are shit all around. When cars are totally different,e ven if they run the same lap times, there will be way more opportunities to pass.
- The stakes are low; if i fuck up and crash, firstly, i'm likely ok, but also i didn't just crash a million dollars, and the only person it affects is me and the other guy, not a corporation, team, etc.

basically it comes down to there is a lot of passing in amateur racing because there are huge differences in skills, cars, and people fuck up a lot more, and who gives a shit if you crash.

Now here is why I think push to pass makes sense for formula racing.
- Pros generally do not drive crappy lines. With everyone driving the same line that means that part of the track is generally faster. Try to pass someone offline and you're driving on debris and a cold track (not really a factor on any track, but in colder climates it is imo) aka slower aka gfl passing.
- Aero as mentioned makes it a lot harder to pass. Drafting advantages on a straight are negated by the lack of corner grip following someone through the corners. The following car still has grip, but is definitely at a disadvantage.
- If you are waiting for a pro to fuck up enough to pass them, you could be waiting for a very long time.
-Cars are pretty similar, or almost identical. Try to battle someone too long and you'll have the guy behind you catch up and potentially get passed by him. Battling someone slows you both down, a lot.

Then you have looking at the big picture and strategy:

In addition to amateur hour real life racing, I've played iracing competitively. Its a simulator where the cars are equal and you get some very very fast drivers to compete again (legitimate pros play that, and i've raced and practiced against/with a number of them, sometimes many many times. Indy, prototype, Aussie V8 supercar). When everyone is about as good as u the mentality becomes 'i can't fuck around with trying to pass someone too much because that guy 1-2 seconds behind me i worked the last 5 laps to gain that gap will close the gap in no time thx to me fucking around with trying to pull off a pass on the guy infront of me and i'll potentially lose a position to him'. There is also a mentality that I can't make a risky pass because if it doesn't work and we both get taken out by my dipshit maneuver we lose out huge on racing points; better to get 3rd almost guaranteed then to flip a coin and go for 2nd and maybe end up DNF (and in real life factor in being down a car for the next race as well). Therefore, its often a better strategy to play follow the leader and hope for a screw up by the guy in front of me, even though he probably will never screw up.

So in a series where cars are fairly equal, drafting doesn't work, going off line is inferior, and stakes are high in several different ways, push to pass basically adds a variable other series have and it takes the place of a draft and gives you the potential for a clean 'easy' pass on demand.

I also wouldn't say taking away aero would make the cars easier to drive; i'd disagree here. For the power to weight these things have I would say no aero would make them a lot harder because you wouldn't be able to put the power down like you can with aero. I've never driven a really fast formula car (but i've driven ones where i've put down faster lap times than any closed wheel race car around here or even a ACR viper could go) and the hardest formula car I drove was the slowest one with almost no aero. Formula cars take getting used to (I wear glasses and would basically go blind at race city down the straight from how much my head would be vibrating), but I found them fairly easy to push to the limit when aero is working (and even at 70kph its doing something), although i did put one in to a cement wall once... and i've yet to crash a closed wheel race car, so i guess there is that.

[rage2]

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I also wouldn't say taking away aero would make the cars easier to drive; i'd disagree here. For the power to weight these things have I would say no aero would make them a lot harder because you wouldn't be able to put the power down like you can with aero. I've never driven a really fast formula car (but i've driven ones where i've put down faster lap times than any closed wheel race car around here or even a ACR viper could go) and the hardest formula car I drove was the slowest one with almost no aero. Formula cars take getting used to (I wear glasses and would basically go blind at race city down the straight from how much my head would be vibrating), but I found them fairly easy to push to the limit when aero is working (and even at 70kph its doing something), although i did put one in to a cement wall once... and i've yet to crash a closed wheel race car, so i guess there is that.

At the upper echelon of driving talent, aka F1 drivers, they would have no problems handing insane power to weight ratios and mistakes would still be rare. Think of when traction control was banned in F1, we thought everyone would spin like a top in the slow bits, but nope, zero issues. Us mere mortals driving it would probably be a disaster.

With aero, you have so many variables to contend with to drive at the absolute limit, from wind speed/direction, air pressure, humidity that affects the level of grip in a corner. It’s that unpredictablility that introduces mistakes with top drivers. USGP was a great example of that, Vettel spinning out in FP2, Hamilton losing 1/2 second on his second Q3 lap because of wind gusts. From the cockpit you have no idea what these variables are doing until you’re well committed into a corner, and hence why mistakes crop up.

[zhao]

I have no experience with aero at those speeds but I can't imagine all that wouldn't be controlled and compensated for with on the fly steering and pedal corrections just like everything else in a race car. Absolutely everything is changing every lap on a race car, so if you can't compensate for changes at the limit you're likely never going to go anywhere. Doesn't matter if its weight transfer, track temps, aero, tire grip, brake balance, debris, moisture, dirt, etc.

Also, a car without aero that can go 180-200mph sounds like a death trap. When you say remove aero, I guess i'll assume you mean lower it by 50% or something haha. If that's the case then yes, big power in a light car wont be such a problem.

[rage2]

No experience myself either, just going by what the drivers say.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/12...blems-to-solve

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/12...austin-mistake

http://www.planetf1.com/news/vettel-...thm-in-austin/

I’ve heard drivers talk about changing conditions where warmer air blows in and lose several points of downforce around a corner.

[speedog]

Regardless of conditions, does a race fan want to see more close quarters racing and more passing at race speeds on the track as opposed more engineered conditions like we're seeing now where there's specific areas on a race course where one can use a push to pass boost or be limited in how many times one can use extra power to make a pass at race speeds?

I realize that F1 and IndyCar to a much lesser extent are a lot about little tweaks here and there with respect to aero but from a fan's perspective or even a driver's perspective, isn't action on the race track what they want. For myself, I find forms of motorsport racing more interesting when there's actual real racing and passing on the track. Yeah, I do truly appreciate engineering advances and such but when those things take the actual racing to a point where the governing body has to start introducing what I'll call artificial solutions to allow some on track passing, then I think they're losing their way with respect to what racing should be.

I guess that maybe artificial solutions are not necessarily a bad thing as there's many forms of racing available to satiate many a fan's and racer's wants - right now I find Robbie Gordon's Stadium Racing series to be very interesting with inverted starting grids and just the lunacy of what they're doing there. It's close quarters racing with passing with pretty much no predictable outcome. F1 and IndyCar on road courses, yupp there is obviously a need for that as well but as a driver or even fan have those two forms of racing strayed just a bit too far from actual racing with their push to pass or is that just the kind of racing some people and racers enjoy?

[mr2mike]

Thought this was a new Tinder feature when i clicked on the thread.

[ExtraSlow]

Serious question, have you used tinder at work just to find coworkers who are dtf?

[mr2mike]

Thought that was what LinkedIn was for?!?

[JustinL]

I'll give my perspective on aero. In non-aero cars, the following car gets the advantage in terms of drafting and so can close up to the lead car easily and when he takes the lead the advantage switches to the other car. This ends up in a draft-lock style of race where cars gravitate towards each other. In F1 we have the opposite problem. The car following has a disadvantage in terms of both grip and cooling so cars tend to repel each other. Passes only happen when the following car has a big advantage and can capitalize quickly, or in pit strategy. They had the solution a couple years ago when they talked about allowing a shaped floor to make the downforce without creating a huge wake, increasing the tire width, and reducing wings and appendages. Unfortunately only the giant tires made it through and they went backwards with wing design making the cars depend again on smooth air.

[tonytiger55]

Rage and Justin kinda summed it up.

I would just add a different angle. Go on you tube and watch some British Touring car races. There are a shit ton of over taking and crashes. Really fun to to watch. If you look at the speeds, they are driving a lot slower.
The speeds F1 cars go are insane and its not straight line speed (braking speeds, turning speed etc). Take the drivers view when they are having a look to overtake, shift gears (whilst not blowing the engine) and brake. Thier reactions are superfast. But people can only react so fast.
As the vehicles get faster it gets waaay harder to calculate those variables for a overtake.

[HiTempguy1]

Less aero is always more spectactular/fun to watch in any race series. Why is that?

Because it increases the variables that the driver has to deal with. A single variable when dealing with aero of "do I have enough grip or not" makes for poor racing. Get rid of aero, and a lot more factors for grip have to be taken into account.

F1 should excite me, I love watching racing, and watching videos of F1 in the 80's gives me a boner. Nowadays? Yawn.

People like rage love it though from a technical standpoint, which is fine. They need some racing to love to, even if it has little to do with racing and more to do with engineering an outcome.

As for interviewing the drivers... I'm of the opinion that is the worst people to ask. Because they probably started in karting, then went straight to open wheel/aero cars. So they have little basis for looking at their sport in any other manner.

Its also why aero guys don't do so hot stepping into other series.

[rage2]

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F1 should excite me, I love watching racing, and watching videos of F1 in the 80's gives me a boner. Nowadays? Yawn.

You must be comparing clips of the 80's to full seasons today. I've rewatched seasons in the 80's and there were quite a few snoozefests, and if you weren't a fan of McLaren, you would've hated some of those dominant years where it was a 2 car race lapping the entire field. I'm sure if you compare the epic clips of even the shittiest passing era of F1 to a full season of 80's F1, the future would look much brighter.

Decreasing aero in today's era of F1 drivers/training/fitness would be disastrous IMO. The variables are even more predictable in finding and maintaining the limit, require less reaction time making it easier to achieve. In fact, I would argue that the 80's would have been less passing if it had the same level of driving skill parity as we have today. TBH some of those 80's F1 drivers shouldn't be driving sports cars, let alone F1 cars, but pay drivers and budgets says otherwise back then more so than today.

Here's some data on F1 passing from the 80's on for those that are curious.

http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

2010's increase came solely from McLaren inventing the F-Duct foot operated "DRS", and some teams copying it while others couldn't, giving a huge disparity between straight line speed.

2011 banned the F-Duct and formally introduced DRS.

Another big problem today is reliability, championships had a lot of luck factor involved where engines designed to run only race distance would randomly grenade like a Honda. That's all gone now with cars being super reliable. This weekend's race, once Hamilton was in the lead, you pretty much knew the ending. Rewind back 15-20 years ago, you would be on the seat of your pants after the final pit stops hoping the lead car would blow up, or transmission would break, or something to slow them down, which usually does happen.

[tonytiger55]

Thats a pretty interesting site.
We should do a Fantasy F1 for next season.

[speedog]

NASCAR's Energy Energy Cup series race at the Sonoma road course saw over 2,000 overtakes in just that one race for 40 drivers. Not sure how IndyCar stacks up but F1 saw just over 1,000 overtakes in the whole of the 2016 season for 21 drivers. Dirt track - who knows but it's also not really fair to make these comparisons because of the differences in these different forms of auto racing.

But still, would there be more excitement to a F1 race if there was more on-track passing - 21 drivers, let's say maybe several hundred passes in a race? IndyCar - is the amount of overtaking/passing similar to F1, I'm not sure but Indycar's oval races do see a lot of on track passing.

[SKR]

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NASCAR's Energy Energy Cup series race at the Sonoma road course saw over 2,000 overtakes in just that one race for 40 drivers. Not sure how IndyCar stacks up but F1 saw just over 1,000 overtakes in the whole of the 2016 season for 21 drivers. Dirt track - who knows but it's also not really fair to make these comparisons because of the differences in these different forms of auto racing.

But still, would there be more excitement to a F1 race if there was more on-track passing - 21 drivers, let's say maybe several hundred passes in a race? IndyCar - is the amount of overtaking/passing similar to F1, I'm not sure but Indycar's oval races do see a lot of on track passing.

Yeah, but this is considered legal passing in NASCAR at Sonoma. Open wheelers don't want that kind of "push to pass".