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Thread: Abortion or not?

  1. #121
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    For example, if we just use the axiom of self ownership, which is each person owns their own body.
    You can use this to answer a wide variety of questions about the moral underpinnings of slavery, women's rights, war drafts etc.
    History has progressed in a way that this philosophy has been realized and acknowledged for the most part in the modern west.

    So if you say to me, I think slavery is moral and you claim otherwise based on your philosophy which is just your opinion, that's not how logic works.
    You can hold the view that slavery is moral, but you would be incorrect. There is no philosophy lightning bolt that will strike you down for holding irrational beliefs without logic basis, it just makes you ignorant.
    "Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."

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    ...
    Last edited by Sugarphreak; 08-17-2019 at 04:06 PM.

  3. #123
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    Originally posted by Sugarphreak
    My philosophy is that we are all going to be dead in ~100 years give or take a few decades, our civilization will eventually come to and end, and the sun will begin to increase it's output over the next 100,000 years by about 10% rendering our planet lifeless... so really, life is just a bunch of stuff that happens, and the idea of right and wrong is basically a moot point.

    Better to mind your own business when it comes to getting too morally entrenched in things that basically don't impact you, and generally do what you gotta do to be happy

    *philosophy mic drop*
    You still don't know what philosophy is, the first claim you made was a scientific prediction, not anything to do with philosophy.
    If your philosophy is that we should allow everyone to have whatever morals they want and not get involved in other situations outside our own, you should advocate for the removal of all laws, and you would actually be advocating anarchy at that point.

    You actually want to take anarchy one step further and not even discuss situations that don't directly involve you.

    You could even define government as the entity that gets involved in moral situations that doesn't involve it.
    We have more in common than I thought.
    Last edited by Modelexis; 01-27-2017 at 03:09 PM.
    "Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."

  4. #124
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    Modelexis, the epitome of how socialization and social lenses work...

    Dude your entitled to your thoughts and opinions, just as I am. But to say philosophy is philosophy, is just narrow-minded and means you ignore your socialization. Philosophy is not a fact.
    Originally posted by speedog
    So more beyond armchair activism at work again?

  5. #125
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    Originally posted by MalibuStacy
    Philosophy is not a fact.
    Is that a fact?
    "Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."

  6. #126
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    fuck, it was a good 6 month run without you here ruining threads. I mean, this thread wasn't much to ruin anyways but still.. great.

  7. #127
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    Philosophy is basically a pointless word, and subjective at best (just like morality).

    Hey Modelexis, how about answering my question from my previous post?

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    Originally posted by Seth1968
    Modelexis:

    Let's say that in the future, you found a girl, and managed to not scare her away. You get her pregnant, but the fetus is so damaged that it will have no motor skills and it's brain is mush. BUT, it's still technically alive. Would you want it aborted?
    I'm married, so you don't have to get too theoretical.
    It's a complicated situation, and I would want you to further define 'mush' and how far along is she - but the question would not be, would I want it aborted in the context of this thread, the question would be would it be immoral or murder to abort this fetus.

    I think this is one of those grey philosophy areas I alluded to earlier that are incredibly rare, yet possible. Philosophy would lean in the direction of allowing this life to continue and using science to attempt to give this life as much meaning as possible.

    Doesn't mean I know how I would handle this specific situation, I would have to talk it over with my wife, and a doctor and decide what I'm prepared to live with. Our decision wouldn't be necessarily moral either way, that's not my choice. The morality of the situation would be subject to debate.

    I would be willing to hear a case for either side in this specific case.
    I know where I stand morally, but that doesn't mean I'm some beacon of virtue and live my life strictly by what is soundly moral. There are cases when I would break from moral philosophy and I recognize these situations and don't try and convince myself that every action I take is moral.

    Moral philosophy is more of a 'diet plan' than it is a solution to rare impossible situations. In the same way, nutrition is a philosophy made to put you on the right path in life, not to cure cancer on your deathbed. It aims to prevent you from getting preventable illnesses, not to save you from a life of poor diet.

    So philosophy is to steer society in a rational direction, not to dictate what some stranded plan crash survivors should do to distribute their limited life vests in the middle of the ocean.
    So these rare extreme situations philosophy can chime in but that's not what it's for.
    Last edited by Modelexis; 01-27-2017 at 04:14 PM.
    "Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."

  9. #129
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    Originally posted by Modelexis

    I'm married, so you don't have to get too theoretical.
    It's a complicated situation, and I would want you to further define 'mush' and how far along is she - but the question would not be, would I want it aborted in the context of this thread, the question would be would it be immoral or murder to abort this fetus.

    I think this is one of those grey philosophy areas I alluded to earlier that are incredibly rare, yet possible. Philosophy would lean in the direction of allowing this life to continue and using science to attempt to give this life as much meaning as possible.

    Doesn't mean I know how I would handle this specific situation, I would have to talk it over with my wife, and a doctor and decide what I'm prepared to live with. Our decision wouldn't be necessarily moral either way, that's not my choice. The morality of the situation would be subject to debate.

    I would be willing to hear a case for either side in this specific case.
    I know where I stand morally, but that doesn't mean I'm some beacon of virtue and live my life strictly by what is soundly moral. There are cases when I would break from moral philosophy and I recognize these situations and don't try and convince myself that every action I take is moral.
    What a bunch of back peddlin' rhetorical BS.

    You know you would want to abort it. Admit it.

    Same for you Duaner.

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    Originally posted by Seth1968
    What a bunch of back peddlin' rhetorical BS.

    You know you would want to abort it. Admit it.

    Same for you Duaner.
    I probably would want to, that just means I have self interest. It doesn't mean that fetus is worthless or is less than human or is less deserving of a life.
    It's a morally bankrupt position, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't make the choice and take on that moral burden.
    I would be putting my own convenience ahead of what was right and what was just.

    If you abort that child and claim to be backed up by philosophy, you have to advocate that adults with brain injuries that turn to mush must be immediately taken off life support on order to be consistent.
    Last edited by Modelexis; 01-27-2017 at 04:23 PM.
    "Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."

  11. #131
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    Originally posted by Modelexis

    I probably would want to, that just means I have self interest. It doesn't mean that fetus is worthless or is less than human or is less deserving of a life.
    It's a morally bankrupt position, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't make the choice and take on that moral burden.
    Wow, that's totally backwards to logic and compassion to which you seem to hold in high regard.

    You're now admitting that such suffering should be avoided, but then emotionally beat yourself up for taking such a position.

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    You're taking the debate to a overly complicated place beyond where it needs to be. The basic question of when does a fetus become life doesn't need at this moment the added complications of genetic mutations. It would be something in the future added to an already ironed out philosophy, not one that has so much heat focused on the basic question of life.

    let's first agree what is life, before we add in sexual orientation, gender oddities, genetic mutations, brain chemistry, eyesight etc.
    It's not unimportant, but it's complicating an already complicated debate.

    Same would be true if we were talking about euthanasia, if we can't agree on the basic idea of death as a medical option for someone who wants to die at an old age, we don't need to bring up some rare situation like michael schumacher.
    Last edited by Modelexis; 01-27-2017 at 05:01 PM.
    "Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."

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    Originally posted by Modelexis
    You're taking the debate to a overly complicated place beyond where it needs to be. .
    No. I just exposed your hypocrisy.

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    Originally posted by Modelexis


    let's first agree what is life, before we add in sexual orientation, gender oddities, genetic mutations, brain chemistry, eyesight etc.
    It's not unimportant, but it's complicating an already complicated debate.

    Bingo! That is exactly the issue.. What is life exactly? Take it a step further because I believe in the context of the conversation, and context is important here, what exactly is human life and at which point does it become more than the building blocks of life and actually become an entity unto itself that deserves ultimate protection and rights? In other words, and for lack of a better all defining term, when does biology become soul? This is the subjective part where personal belief over rides scientific assessment and I believe you will never come to a concrete answer that is acceptable to all...

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    Originally posted by tirebob
    Bingo! That is exactly the issue.. What is life exactly? Take it a step further because I believe in the context of the conversation, and context is important here, what exactly is human life and at which point does it become more than the building blocks of life and actually become an entity unto itself that deserves ultimate protection and rights? In other words, and for lack of a better all defining term, when does biology become soul? This is the subjective part where personal belief over rides scientific assessment and I believe you will never come to a concrete answer that is acceptable to all...
    So the lifers are defining life as, heart beat, fingerprint, brain activity, smile, pain reception etc. not in that order or all of those things combined but those are some of the various positions of various lifers.

    What is the defining point for a choicer? the cut of the umbilical cord?

    I haven't experienced any range of grey for choicers, they seem to be quite black and white.
    "Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."

  16. #136
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    Originally posted by Modelexis


    So the lifers are defining life as, heart beat, fingerprint, brain activity, smile, pain reception etc. not in that order or all of those things combined but those are some of the various positions of various lifers.

    What is the defining point for a choicer? the cut of the umbilical cord?

    I haven't experienced any range of grey for choicers, they seem to be quite black and white.
    Well there are definitely extremes to this question isn't there?

    Take it to the one side, I am sure there are people who believe that while baby is inside the belly, it is 100 percent the mothers choices, while the other end of the equation you have traditional Catholics who believe even even the egg and sperm are sacred (cue the Monty Python song from The Meaning of Life) and that even birth control is a sin.

    This is exactly why the discussion is unwinnable because there is too much subjectivity because for some a newly conceived fetus is simply a blob of cells no different than a blob of cells for a cat, the only difference being DNA, while for others, mostly the religious followers, believe that the eternal soul is present at the moment of conception.

    Again, my perspective is that it is different for everyone and can not be pegged into a single hole, especially if you are deeming termination of pregnancy to be equivalent to murder in the eyes of law and society. For example, as a society in general, and even in the eyes of our law, it isn't considered "murder" if you kill another human in defense of your own life, so if you are standing in front of me holding a gun about to pull the trigger and I find a way to kill you first in defense of my own life, that is not considered murder, but in the next situation the only difference is you standing in front of me has you not holding a gun but I kill you anyways, then that is murder and not simply self preservation.

    In a darker way, abortion is similar where for one person, pregnancy is a negative life impacting condition and to them termination is essentially self preservation, but for another pregnancy is a wonderful, positive life changing experience and if you were to walk up and terminate the babies life inside the mother by stabbing her in the stomach or some other violent act, guaranteed that would be considered murder to the mother.

    So the question really isn't when do cells become life, but instead when does life become valuable?

    I cannot even pretend to have an answer to that to apply to the world...

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    Wow why do some people care so much about this? And what other people believe and do with their bodies? Who cares if it is life? It's not 'sacred'. It's just a set of possibilities that are unknown. All these SJWs crusading for some kids to grow up disadvantaged and unloved just because they feel they have to take a moral high ground and 'protect human life' as long as it's someone else's problem.

    Who cares if it's murder. Some people say meat is murder and it's fucking delicious.
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    Originally posted by Seth1968


    Because its life would probably be absolute misery. Another factor would be care cost, as well as the negative repercussions on any other kids in the family. That is, all the parents time would be consumed by this one child, while the others get basically ignored.

    The epitome of selfishness and self righteousness is not aborting when the consequences are detrimental to all involved.

    Girl born ‘without brain’ is now 6 years old, but struggling for life
    So how does any of that justify killing an innocent life?

    Putting a dollar value on the life of another human being? Really? So because a fetus that will have difficulties is going to cost $X, it is justifiable to kill it?

    Do you think that a child who loses their limbs in an explosion but survives, should then be killed because they will cost the system too much money or be too much of a burden on their family?

    No one is saying in such cases that these are easy decisions but to carry such reasoning to its logical conclusions allows us to kill many people of any age.

    The epitome of selfishness is killing an innocent human being because they are or may be an inconvenience. And to kill an innocent human being because they cost too much, well....

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    Originally posted by g-m
    Wow why do some people care so much about this? And what other people believe and do with their bodies? Who cares if it is life? It's not 'sacred'. It's just a set of possibilities that are unknown. All these SJWs crusading for some kids to grow up disadvantaged and unloved just because they feel they have to take a moral high ground and 'protect human life' as long as it's someone else's problem.

    Who cares if it's murder. Some people say meat is murder and it's fucking delicious.
    SJW?

    "Who cares if it is life?" As has been pointed out, the vast majority of abortions are done because they are an inconvenience. You don't believe life is sacred. Fine. But what abortion does, and what you don't care about, is that it cheapens life. To not care that tens of thousands of innocent human beings are killed every year, is to be no better than Hitler or ISIS.

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    What if we're all in the matrix and aborted fetus' wake up and live a full life not trapped by the constraints of the program and are desperately trying to free more of us?

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