NDP trying to unionize engineers

[bjstare]

Originally posted by Type_S1


This guy wouldn't understand the vast difference in office worker quality or the reason why 2 guys with the same years experience can make $100,000 difference in salary. He likely has always worked a $/hour gig and felt the "big man" was taking advantage of the poor workers.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Type_S1


This guy wouldn't understand the vast difference in office worker quality or the reason why 2 guys with the same years experience can make $100,000 difference in salary. He likely has always worked a $/hour gig and felt the "big man" was taking advantage of the poor workers.

Haha. That's a good one.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by g-m
so all those people behind the numbers are equal? They all do the same quality of work, at the same speed? They all write and communicate equally well? They all have the same industry contacts and networks? They are all equally intelligent?

They are in a Union!

[ExtraSlow]

Sometimes I think working union might be nice for quality of life and peace of mind. Stop pressing so hard with your projects, just show up, do good work, go home when it's quitting time.

I've always been treated well and compensated excellently by non-union workplaces. Have felt that I had sufficient leverage to negotiate changes in my compensation when appropriate.

Who knows, maybe one day I'll find out what the union world is like. Can't say I'd refuse work if it happened to be union.

[littledan]

Union is the WORST!

Picture this. You are a hard working engineer and apply for a management position. Joey Dumbass is also an engineer and applies for the same position. You might have way better work ethic, intelligence, training, etc. But if Joey has seniority, guess who gets hired? And if they don't hire him, guess who will file a grievance with the union? There are ways around it but its much harder in a unionized environment.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by Gestalt




That's what I said.

But you undertsand as an indivuidual, your bargaining power is limited. there's strength in numbers obviously.

How will you account for the vast differences in the sub disciplines within engineering?Should an HVAC engineer be paid the same as a drilling engineer? Will you create multiple unions?

If everyone is union and pay is similar how many small engineering companies currently operating will you put out of business? How is that better for the engineer who can do many projects at a lower wage but none at a higher wage because they are no longer cheaper than larger companies just hiring their own engineers?

How will you ensure individuals are strongly motivated to assure their work? If they have union that protects them I gauruntee the feeling of personal accountability for their work will be diminished. How will you combat this complacency?

If as you say as a whole they can fight for higher average wages how will you prevent companies from offshoring the engineering work?

Have you considered any of the above?

[speedog]

Again, where has anyone seen anything saying engineers are going to be unionized? Maybe it's just about sweeping a few more job descriptions under Alberta's codes - just because your job is regulated under Alberta's rules doesn't mean your workplace had to be unionized. Also, larger companies that have a national scope most likely wouldn't even fall under Alberta's code as they'd fall under the Canada Labour Code.

[ExtraSlow]

It's not going to unionize engineers working in non-union workplaces. What is could do is force engineers who work in already-unionized workplaces to join that union.

So in the end, it's going to effect a small number of engineers out there. Maybe 5% or so in Alberta.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by speedog
Again, where has anyone seen anything saying engineers are going to be unionized? Maybe it's just about sweeping a few more job descriptions under Alberta's codes - just because your job is regulated under Alberta's rules doesn't mean your workplace had to be unionized. Also, larger companies that have a national scope most likely wouldn't even fall under Alberta's code as they'd fall under the Canada Labour Code.

If you work as an engineer for companies with existing unions you will be forcibly unionized by these changed rules. So for example if you worked for CP, CN, Enmax, City of Calgary, etc... in the past you would have been exempt from the union but once these rules are in place you would be amalgamated without being able to choose otherwise. This is already the case for EIT's after a previous court ruling involving the City of Calgary. So EIT's are union members but once you acquire your P.Eng. you are exempt. This exemption is what the NDP is trying to remove.

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
It's not going to unionize engineers working in non-union workplaces. What is could do is force engineers who work in already-unionized workplaces to join that union.

So in the end, it's going to effect a small number of engineers out there. Maybe 5% or so in Alberta.

It's going to be a lot more than 5% of people between government positions and the various private sector companies with unions already in place.

[ExtraSlow]

Someone who is knowledgeable can maybe clarify this. But say a large oilsands company has a union that represents some of the site-based employees. Usually that union will not represent any of the head-office staff. While a portion of the engineering and managerial staff may work on location, I would suspect the vast majority work in the head office.

So in that scenario, who ends up in the union and who doesn't?

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Someone who is knowledgeable can maybe clarify this. But say a large oilsands company has a union that represents some of the site-based employees. Usually that union will not represent any of the head-office staff. While a portion of the engineering and managerial staff may work on location, I would suspect the vast majority work in the head office.

So in that scenario, who ends up in the union and who doesn't?

If you lose union exemption status you would then be fair game to be unionized. There's previous case law on the topic and as it stands the only thing preventing this from happening is having your position marked as management or your current exemption through the APEGA act.

Here's a blurb on the topic if you're bored(APEGA lost the case and you can be sure they are gunning for the engineers if the exemption is removed from the act):
https://www.apega.ca/assets/peg/fall-2014.pdf

See page 8

Again this was done without consent from the EIT's and was imposed upon them by the union since well more members + more fees = more power...

[speedog]

CN and CP won't be affected as they fall under the Canadian Labour Code

As to the scope of who is or is not swept into a union, that is an interesting topic - I'll post on this later as I've been involved quite heavily in unions in the past as well as being management.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by speedog
CN and CP won't be affected as they fall under the Canadian Labour Code

I'm not so sure about this since currently the exemption is done regionally through the provincial engineering act. There is no federal engineering act so the regional one is what is currently granting exemptions as far as I know. So once this is removed you could in theory unionize the engineers working in Alberta for CN/CP but not the ones in other areas which still have the exemption in place. Either way you can guarantee it's going to end up in the courts since it's a huge sore spot with the union since the engineers are asked to drive trains etc... when the union is involved in job action.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by littledan
But if Joey has seniority

Originally posted by J-hop

Should an HVAC engineer be paid the same as a drilling engineer? Will you create multiple unions?

If everyone is union and pay is similar

You guys really, really don't know how unions work, especially nowadays.

[speedog]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


I'm not so sure about this since currently the exemption is done regionally through the provincial engineering act. There is no federal engineering act so the regional one is what is currently granting exemptions as far as I know. So once this is removed you could in theory unionize the engineers working in Alberta for CN/CP but not the ones in other areas which still have the exemption in place. Either way you can guarantee it's going to end up in the courts since it's a huge sore spot with the union since the engineers are asked to drive trains etc... when the union is involved in job action.

An act that regulates a profession has nothing to do with what labour code a profession may fall under, one can fall under the federal labour code but still be beholden to a professional act that is regulated provincially.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by speedog
An act that regulates a profession has nothing to do with what labour code a profession may fall under, one can fall under the federal labour code but still be beholden to a professional act that is regulated provincially.

Looking at this again I think you're correct on this front since I had believed in error there was two exemption clauses that they would have to remove by the provincial government but it appears the single exemption clause is in the labour act and not in the engineering and geoscience act itself.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1




You guys really, really don't know how unions work, especially nowadays.

Teamsters.....

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by J-hop


Teamsters.....

As I have said before, and as most of you don't want to hear as it goes against your preconceived notions of what a union is and what it does:

1) Unions != seniority clauses. In most cases nowadays, they aren't a thing.

2) You most certainly can have varying salaries and pay scales for individuals, usually based on a performance grid system. You can even have a *gasp* bonus-pay based system.

3) At the end of the day, regardless of being a unionized employee or not, you still have to work in the best interests of the company. As the saying goes "management has the right to manage". Doesn't change whether you are union or not. Doesn't affect some odd sense of moral righteousness in regards to "public safety" or "ethics".

You should not be using labour unions, especially for trades, as the basis for your arguments. I understand this is just in one ear, out the other for most in this thread, but seriously

As for the whole "being forced to being unionized", as mentioned in so many other threads, go get a job elsewhere if you don't like it Isn't that the Beyond status quo line for whenever somebody complains about their job? Nobody is forcing you to stay there

[J-hop]

lol, yea the typical beyond line doesn't work when schulich is still pumping out cheap grads like it's going out of style and the unemployment rate for most engineering disciplines is huge.

At the end of the day I don't see unions as beneficial for the engineer, companies or the economy in general.

I can't think of a single positive thing unionizing even a portion of engineers would bring.

[g-m]

Nope