Calgary Flames MEGA THREAD 2017-2018 Edition

[adam c]

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So where is the site of this new arena - because if its exactly the same as the saddledome then demolishing that would leave them no where to play. I could see them building it north of the saddledome but thats just moving it further away from everything.

The city wants it a just north of the current Saddledome, I think that's a dumb area but I don't make that call

[01RedDX]

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[R-Audi]

I was under the impression that the only time the team actually makes money is when they make the playoffs, regular season was basically break even.

Im getting fairly sick of this though, it seems clear that both sides are hiding things and nothing will get done unless both are honest. (Which I dont have high hopes for Nenshi or the Flames, but I guess we will see when the Flames release their proposal. Cities certainy had holes in it.)

[Buster]

I think Forbes has the Flames value at something like half a billion.

Break-even businesses don't do that, unless it's the dotcom bubble.

[rage2]

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I think Forbes has the Flames value at something like half a billion.

Break-even businesses don't do that, unless it's the dotcom bubble.

Florida Panthers haha. Hockey business isn't normal business. The Panthers have lost money every year, but the value of the team has appreciated more than the losses. So while the team itself shows a loss, on paper it's a profit from things such as Arena (they get all profits from non hockey events like the Flames for the dome), as well as NHL revenue sharing.

The difference is that in real business, if Suncor loses money, they don't get a handout from CNRL.

[Buster]

They might "lose" money when it comes to ticket sales, etc. But I doubt they lose money when all revenue is considered, as you say.

[rage2]

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They might "lose" money when it comes to ticket sales, etc. But I doubt they lose money when all revenue is considered, as you say.

That’s correct. In the Flames case, most likely profitable today, but a chunk of that money goes into the pool to subsidize teams like Florida so it may be close in terms of actual revenue after accounting for revenue sharing. In Florida’s case, they actually lost money one year, that was the lockout year where there was no NHL revenue sharing. Basically, you need a combination of team + arena deal to make money. Without either, it won’t work. It works for large markets because they have multiple pro sports teams, more events which works out to 0 empty days in their arenas, so the events revenue is far more lucrative.

End of the day, we have no clue what the books look like for the Flames. We only know how it works in Florida's case because they had to open the books up publically for their arena funding deal.

[Buster]

I haven't looked into it in detail, but I suspect that the broadcast revenue shoulders most of that on behalf of all teams. The only reason that the NHL is in markets like Florida and even Arizona is so that they can sell "national" broadcasting rights. They don't give a shit about the panthers one wya or the other.

[rage2]

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I haven't looked into it in detail, but I suspect that the broadcast revenue shoulders most of that on behalf of all teams. The only reason that the NHL is in markets like Florida and even Arizona is so that they can sell "national" broadcasting rights. They don't give a shit about the panthers one wya or the other.

Yea, which is why people thinking those teams to Seattle rather than Calgary is just dreaming. Calgary is unique in that we're in the same TV market as the Oilers, so going from 2 to 1 team isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

[SOAB]

the city should not be in the business of raising social and living standards in the city. they should be charging user fees for all of the parks like Princess Island park, all the dog parks, all the spray parks. these are all net zero benefits to this city and i shouldn't have my tax dollars paying for that shit. want the parks to stay? better pay for that shit. wanna use a bike path? pay a toll! i don't care if they go or stay but MY taxes should not be used to maintain and build new ones.

[spikerS]

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the city should not be in the business of raising social and living standards in the city. they should be charging user fees for all of the parks like Princess Island park, all the dog parks, all the spray parks. these are all net zero benefits to this city and i shouldn't have my tax dollars paying for that shit. want the parks to stay? better pay for that shit. wanna use a bike path? pay a toll! i don't care if they go or stay but MY taxes should not be used to maintain and build new ones.

Well, in the grand scheme of things, I am glad the city doesn't think the way you do.

[SOAB]

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Well, in the grand scheme of things, I am glad the city doesn't think the way you do.

this is basically what all those opposed to the new arena are saying.

this new arena is more than about just the Flames. they only use the place 41 days of the year + some misc days. this is about the social benefits of having a pro hockey team and what they do for this city, not just in taxes but also the smiles they put on peoples faces, the kids that the players visit at the childrens hospital, the charities that they raise money for, etc.

there is more to a city than roads and hospitals. want to be a world class city with a high standard of living? these things cost money. I'd rather my taxes went to a new arena district that i could use 10 days of the year instead of some library that i know i'll never step foot in.

[Thaco]

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this is basically what all those opposed to the new arena are saying.

this new arena is more than about just the Flames. they only use the place 41 days of the year + some misc days. this is about the social benefits of having a pro hockey team and what they do for this city, not just in taxes but also the smiles they put on peoples faces, the kids that the players visit at the childrens hospital, the charities that they raise money for, etc.

there is more to a city than roads and hospitals. want to be a world class city with a high standard of living? these things cost money. I'd rather my taxes went to a new arena district that i could use 10 days of the year instead of some library that i know i'll never step foot in.

except that the parks and pathways are accessible and free to all... not the elite few.
If you don't make use of the free amenities, that's your own fault, but when someone cant shell out $$$ for tickets for whatever event is at the arena, that's not benefiting and accessible to everybody, so it shouldn't be paid for by the city (AKA, everybody)..

[suntan]

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this is basically what all those opposed to the new arena are saying.

this new arena is more than about just the Flames. they only use the place 41 days of the year + some misc days. this is about the social benefits of having a pro hockey team and what they do for this city, not just in taxes but also the smiles they put on peoples faces, the kids that the players visit at the childrens hospital, the charities that they raise money for, etc.

there is more to a city than roads and hospitals. want to be a world class city with a high standard of living? these things cost money. I'd rather my taxes went to a new arena district that i could use 10 days of the year instead of some library that i know i'll never step foot in.

There is this thing called taking your argument off a cliff. Which is what you did.

[SOAB]

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except that the parks and pathways are accessible and free to all... not the elite few.
If you don't make use of the free amenities, that's your own fault, but when someone cant shell out $$$ for tickets for whatever event is at the arena, that's not benefiting and accessible to everybody, so it shouldn't be paid for by the city (AKA, everybody)..

like i said, there is more to the hockey team than just the 41 games that they play in the arena.

[suntan]

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like i said, there is more to the hockey team than just the 41 games that they play in the arena.

If you think an arena like the being proposed is truly equivalent to public parks, then your entire logic system is broken.

In regards to "smiles on kids faces" and their "charity" work, the city might as well just give $155 million to charities then.

[SOAB]

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If you think an arena like the being proposed is truly equivalent to public parks, then your entire logic system is broken.

In regards to "smiles on kids faces" and their "charity" work, the city might as well just give $155 million to charities then.

you seem to think that money can fix anything. sure, kids at a hospital would be happy when they are healed and get to go home, but what about when they're in the hospital? a visit from one of the local heroes can help them through tough times. a $10 bill wouldn't do that...

i fail to see how the great social benefit of having a hockey team here is worth nothing. even as a non-football fan, i would hate to see the stamps leave.

[colinxx235]

I wonder how far the consequences would go if the group was to sell the team to the Seattle branch at which point wouldn't be long until they left.
What would happen to the Stamps, Roughnecks, Hitmen. I do believe that most of those organizations don't generate a whole ton of profit and hence are all owned under the Flames umbrella.
Aside from the immediate impact to everyone who works at those stadiums, all the promotion companies, food/liquor suppliers etc. That would then trickle to all the local businesses that get people downtown for dinner/drinks before/after flames games, all your neighborhood pubs that host the games and do specials and giveaways. How much of The Jersey Stores revenue is Calgary team based.
What does one do with an empty dome? Hope to bring concerts in non stop (which they have already had a huge issue bringing in some of the bigger names due to the domes age/speaker setup restrictions etc.)
I don't know how much funding from Flames goes to Winsport (or how thats run) but I would have to assume the trickle effect would just continue and branch out farther than more people expect.

The funds that went to the library for something that offers so little in return to most seems like an easy argument to when handing money to keep a team that can bring the city together for enjoyment and probably employs several people directly/indirectly

[HiTempguy1]

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I wonder how far the consequences would go if the group was to sell the team to the Seattle branch at which point wouldn't be long until they left.
What would happen to the Stamps, Roughnecks, Hitmen. I do believe that most of those organizations don't generate a whole ton of profit and hence are all owned under the Flames umbrella.
Aside from the immediate impact to everyone who works at those stadiums, all the promotion companies, food/liquor suppliers etc. That would then trickle to all the local businesses that get people downtown for dinner/drinks before/after flames games, all your neighborhood pubs that host the games and do specials and giveaways. How much of The Jersey Stores revenue is Calgary team based.
What does one do with an empty dome? Hope to bring concerts in non stop (which they have already had a huge issue bringing in some of the bigger names due to the domes age/speaker setup restrictions etc.)
I don't know how much funding from Flames goes to Winsport (or how thats run) but I would have to assume the trickle effect would just continue and branch out farther than more people expect.

The funds that went to the library for something that offers so little in return to most seems like an easy argument to when handing money to keep a team that can bring the city together for enjoyment and probably employs several people directly/indirectly

Very few people who were against the library are arguing in favour of the stadium either, its not a reasonable comparison anyways. Its a public good that CAN be used by anybody. That doesn't necessarily mean it WILL be.

Additionally, I already posted the numbers in this thread. It has very little economic value (stadiums/sports teams) beyond what people would already spend. If there was no flames, they would just spend their money locally on other things. You do bring credibility to bringing in concerts non-stop, but again, as concerts are one and done events, people WILL travel for those. You'll only earn more money for the city in the way that you'll be taking the paying ticket holders from Edmonton (which all the large concerts goes to already and is easily accessible from Calgary) to just stay in the city. But it really amounts to pocket change in the grand scheme of things because you only have what, 15 major acts at most come through a year?

[suntan]

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you seem to think that money can fix anything. sure, kids at a hospital would be happy when they are healed and get to go home, but what about when they're in the hospital? a visit from one of the local heroes can help them through tough times. a $10 bill wouldn't do that...

i fail to see how the great social benefit of having a hockey team here is worth nothing. even as a non-football fan, i would hate to see the stamps leave.

Hey you're the one thinking money fixes all. After all, without that tax money your rich hero can't visit poor Timmy in the hospital.

Yeesh.