Threshold Braking vs ABS

[RealJimmyJames]

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just did the trek from Coventry down to southcenter mall area, and back. Going south on Deerfoot wasn't bad, was doing 100 in the fast lane, most people in the middle lane were doing 70-80. On the way back though, had to go quite a bit slower, the slightest throttle input was making the truck step out, especially over the calf robe. Was pretty much cruising at 55-60. touch the brakes and ABS kicked on, put my threshold breaking skills to the test for sure and left lots of room.

KA02 performance today wasn't very good on the roads, Gonna have to put on the studded winters sooner than I was hoping to.

you are threshold braking in a vehicle with abs?

[spikerS]

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you are threshold braking in a vehicle with abs?

Yes, I do threshold braking to avoid ABS kicking on unless it is a situation that calls for emergency breaking.

[J-hop]

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you are threshold braking in a vehicle with abs?

Everyone should. Relying on ABS is a crutch.


Still don’t get why people are continuing the winter tire debate. Obviously winter tires don’t replace good driving skills that is a silly arguement, but just like good brakes they complement them. A pretty freaking simple concept in my eyes

[D'z Nutz]

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Yes, I do threshold braking to avoid ABS kicking on unless it is a situation that calls for emergency breaking.

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Everyone should. Relying on ABS is a crutch.

Weird. I always assumed that's how everyone did it too. I didn't even know it had a name until I looked it up just now.

[ercchry]

Have experts not tested threshold vs abs to death?!

Been proven over and over again that abs does a better job than any human ever could?

[spikerS]

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Have experts not tested threshold vs abs to death?!

Been proven over and over again that abs does a better job than any human ever could?

in 99% of situations, yes, especially when steering input is still needed, but, that was never the argument here.

[J-hop]

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Have experts not tested threshold vs abs to death?!

Been proven over and over again that abs does a better job than any human ever could?

Fairly certain it’s been beaten to death that threshold braking out performs ABS. Pumping the brakes does not though. I know from empirical testing stomping and relying on ABS on my car’s at least increases stopping distances over threshold.

They have stopped teaching it in drivers ed from what I know as it takes forever to master and most people are better off stomping and letting ABS figure it out.

I spent my first 5 winters in a car that didn't have ABS so that wasn’t even an option.

https://jalopnik.com/how-to-stop-on-...kes-1790269905

http://www.drivingfast.net/braking/

[HiTempguy1]

Its pretty straightforward, once a tire has lost traction and ABS has kicked in, the friction force between the tire and ground is lowered (because the tire is sliding). In order to get back to a higher friction state, the ABS must lower the braking force to a point the tire starts rolling again, which is less force than if you had simply threshold braked and never lost traction in the first place.

Having said that, this is an extremely simplistic viewpoint and there are a lot of variables. But one other thing to consider is if you hit abs engagement, what do you typically do?

You press the brake harder. As its basically impossible to know when ABS will kick in (different cars have different programming for.when and how it will kick in), again, threshold braking is superior.

The tests that show ABS is better usually is in regards to HIGH FRICTION situations. It's no different than doing software for self driving cars. High friction situations completely eliminate an incredibly important variable, which is traction. If that is taken care of (traction/friction variable is always just used at its maximum) it is easy to optimize the system for that.

Have ABS systems come a long way? Absolutely. For a lot of drivers, Im.sure they help. But they aren't the best answer.

[ianmcc]

Isn't the real purpose of ABS to maintain directional control during braking?

[ExtraSlow]

Isn't braking lightly different than true threshold braking?

[J-hop]

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Isn't the real purpose of ABS to maintain directional control during braking?

Cant turn if you’re locked up so you’re right on that point but other main purpose is to keep from locking up to decrease stopping distance (vs full and continuous lockup). If you’re on a sheet of ice it’ll take days to stop if you don’t have ABS and lock it up.

- - - Updated - - -

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Isn't braking lightly different than true threshold braking?

Threshold braking is taking it to the limit of traction while staying under the limit where abs kicks in. Essentially “braking lightly” in a stomp vs threshold perspective.

[Darell_n]

Threshold braking is useless on really bad roads. I recently had a bad speed sensor on my WRX and on Crowchild yesterday, the slush and snow between the lanes was fairly deep. (No ABS, traction/stability control, no hill assist) Feathering the brakes at all would send the car half a lane sideways as one side had 90% traction and the other had 1%. On my return trip, the car was back normal and the ABS let me brake as hard or as little as I wanted and the car was straight as an arrow. I was very much against ABS as a young driver but the newer driving aids are now pretty sweet. I only now hate ABS on gravel as it most definitely increasing stopping distance vs digging the tires in.

[My_name_is_Rob]

in before:

When accelerating its much easier to mash the throttle and let traction control sort it out, rather than learn how to accelerate properly. #millennials (?)

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

My goals are always to drive without ABS intervention however it does happen (ie a pedestrian j walked in front of me from a dark alley last night and had to make a very quick stop). When we go out on the lake I generally pull my ABS fuse however that’s more for a competition point of view where I need to be able to left foot brake mid corner at times and use the handbrake on corner entry a lot in my car.

[Xtrema]

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Threshold braking is useless on really bad roads. I recently had a bad speed sensor on my WRX and on Crowchild yesterday, the slush and snow between the lanes was fairly deep. (No ABS, traction/stability control, no hill assist) Feathering the brakes at all would send the car half a lane sideways as one side had 90% traction and the other had 1%. On my return trip, the car was back normal and the ABS let me brake as hard or as little as I wanted and the car was straight as an arrow. I was very much against ABS as a young driver but the newer driving aids are now pretty sweet. I only now hate ABS on gravel as it most definitely increasing stopping distance vs digging the tires in.

This is basically the same as the whole manual vs auto debate. Eventually technology will out perform most human. ABS today isn't the same as ABS from 20 years ago. I remember there were always pile up at the end of a neighborhood hill until ABS and winter tires are more common. People who knows and care about threshold braking isn't the 80-90% of mainstream public which ABS is designed to save.

And I don't know if people with ABS are still pumping their brakes, remember a lot of people didn't transition well into ABS early on and pumps them which make it perform way worse.

[r3ccOs]

for many years I loved having a manual transmission on a part-time 4 for engine braking on ice... but these days every auto transmission is gearmatic, let alone a DSG so you can still do the same thing but by no means would I ever say that this method of slowing down is > ABS

I mean some ABS systems are far more invasive than others, but those sensors are detecting when your tires have "locked"... so by the time the ABS is engaging, you aren't so called "threshold" breaking.

also performance threshold breaking on tarmac while racing is so incredibly different than a 0 traction environment.

Though I love my F150 with the locker, part time 4 and geartronic... the fact is its primarily RWD, solid rear axle, weighs alot, high center of gravity... so in flat corners or uneven icy roads, or emergency braking in traffic, I'd take my AWD Volvo with studded Winters any day.

On a straight highway in inclement weather where must need to be safe and able to get through all potential snow/ice condition (or to get out of a ditch if it so happens...) I prefer my truck with the Cooper AT/Ws (X/T4)

[Tik-Tok]

TIL people actually use ABS brakes in their habitual driving, and not as an emergency braking procedure. I can't remember the last time I had my ABS in use.

[botox]

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Weird. I always assumed that's how everyone did it too. I didn't even know it had a name until I looked it up just now.

Same here. I've been driving like that since I started driving, never knew there was a word for it. Also stopping on undriven/unpolished spots help and if there are patches of concrete I'll brake hard on them.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I find I can definitely stop sooner and harder in snowy/icy conditions by braking just to the point before ABS kicks in. If I need to also steer, then I let the ABS do it's thing. I assumed this is what everyone does because it's super easy to tell which way makes the car stop harder. Especially with a good set of winters it's astonishing how hard you can stop in some pretty horrible conditions.

[ExtraSlow]

TIL that I'm a much worse driver than most of beyond because when there's snow and ice on the ground, my ABS kicks in at least a few times a week.