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    Default Electricity Demand/Delivery charges

    Saw this posted on the Alberta sub on reddit and though I'd post it here to get people's thoughts on it - the bolded red section is the one I'm really interested in to see if there's any actual truth to that. Now I've looked at my Enmax bills and I don't see how my power bill would drop 30% when the distribution charge is on average around 22-23% of the total electricity costs for our home...

    Your Power Bill:
    1 - Fees and bullshit. There's always fees and bullshit. Let's just get that out of the way. Billing, administration, etc.
    2 - "Energy" charges. This is what most of you probably think you're paying for, but it's actually the smallest part of your bill. This is how much energy you use. It's an amount. If you conserve or use no electricity, this part will be zero. It scales linearly with how much you use. I.E. If you use twice as much energy, this portion will cost you twice as much. I don't think Alberta has different cost rates for different times of day like you see in other places like California. It's just one rate. This rate goes up and down slightly, and you can shop around for different rates from different power companies, lock in at a certain rate, go with a floating rate, etc.
    3 - "Demand/Delivery" charges. This is what most of you probably don't understand. This is what you're charged to be part of the grid, but it's not a flat fee, and it's what makes up most of your bill. You are charged for the largest amount of power you needed at any moment that month. Power is the rate at which energy flows, in watts. It's basically saying "How thick did the wires need to be to go to your house this month?" or "How big of a grid did we need because of you this month?" and charging you a linear rate for that. If the highest rate you needed last month (how many things were turned on at a time) was 5000 watts, and this month is 10,000 watts, this part of your bill will be twice as high this month.
    Now obviously the wires to your house aren't growing and shrinking each month, and it doesn't cost the utility company any more money based on how much you use at a given time (generally, there's a power supplier auction that happens on an hourly basis for the people who run the grid, and some times of day are more expensive to purchase power to supply the grid, etc, but ignore that). It only costs them more money for how much energy you use (more water through the dam, coal burned, etc). But... the grid isn't free, and this is how they break up the cost of the grid in a sort of fair way. If the system needs to put out 10,000,000 watts for even 60 seconds a month, the system has to be built to be able to provide that. Those that have higher demand blips that month, pay a larger percentage.
    Your power company is billed the demand charges from the... grid organization. Not sure if it's government owned or whatnot, but, they pass those charges onto you. Most (all?) of your utility companies are actually just marketing and billing companies, they have nothing to do with the actual electricity.
    So...
    The "problem" for solar people is that #3 up there, your demand charges, have a base rate. So unlike the energy portion of your bill which, if you use zero you pay zero... there's a base amount you will pay for demand. For me it's 3,000W. If nothing is plugged in all month, I still pay as if I'd plugged in 3000W worth of stuff (2 toasters or hair dryers running full blast all month). You don't pay for the energy (if you plug nothing in, you used no energy), but there's a minimum part of the grid they'll say you're responsible for.
    Some numbers to help wrap your head around this... The average power draw of a home is around 1,000 watts. If you took the amount of energy consumed in a month, and perfectly spread it out over the whole month, it would be about 1,000 watts.
    A cellphone charger is about 10 watts. A computer or TV is about 100 watts. A toaster or hair dryer or space heater is about 1500 watts. A clothes dryer is 6000 watts. An oven is probably 5000 watts and the stove is another 5,000 watts.
    ...
    Conserving:
    For people who want to reduce your electricity bill, what can you do?
    The government has all these nice programs about "conserving energy" and the utter inconsequential bullshit "conservation theatre" tips that make you feel like you're doing something but have no effect. "Phantom power" from your cell phone charger being plugged in even if not in use? Better put that on a power bar so you don't have that scary phantom power. It adds up to literally not even a penny a year. Turn the lights off when you leave a room? Might add up to a dollar or two a year.
    They have you running around trying to be energy efficient when it makes no impact on: A - Your environmental impact, and B - Your bill.
    The best thing you can do to reduce your power bill is make sure you're not cooking while you're drying clothes, ever, even once, in a month. Pull that one thing off and your power bill will drop 30%.
    That's the only thing that's tripping your demand charges from 5kw rate to 10kw rate. Nothing else, even added up, is likely to have an influence or not have you living in paranoia. There's 100 little things that you'd have to get perfectly and there's no point in stressing about. Just make 1 rule: No cooking while drying clothes, even for 1 second. Boom, 30% reduction in your power bill.
    Will fuck off, again.

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    I don't think that's how it works in Alberta.
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    I question it as well but don't have the knowledge and have been unable to find anything to totally disprove or prove all or part of it. That's why I posted this on beyond with the hopes that someone here might know a bit more about all of this. A fair bit of the stuff in the quote text above makes sense but the bolded red part is what I am really questioning.
    Will fuck off, again.

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    That's definitely not how it works. We don't have tiers of kw/h charges (not for residential anyways). It is how it works in Ontario though, so someone is only half listening to the news.

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    Demand / hourly based pricing is a powerful tool that would go a long way towards reducing the strain on the system, but it's not a thing in Alberta.
    Henry why I don't care when my air conditioning runs during the "electricity rush hour".
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    Does anyone know how the non-electricity charges are done? They change per month but on what basis?
    Will fuck off, again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedog View Post
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    Does anyone know how the non-electricity charges are done? They change per month but on what basis?
    All I know is at my new place in the country, my delivery charges amounted to $60 and I used $20 in electricity. My rental unit has consistently cost ~$50/month since I first bought it, even with me paying the bill and renters getting carte blanche to do whatever the f*&k they want. It works out to about $15 in electricity per month, the rest are the charges.

    Fucking outrageous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    Demand / hourly based pricing is a powerful tool that would go a long way towards reducing the strain on the system, but it's not a thing in Alberta.
    Henry why I don't care when my air conditioning runs during the "electricity rush hour".
    Businesses pay spot price.

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    As others have said, ours isn't anything like this. We charge a combination of daily fixed rates and usage based rates. No peaks or anything.

    We have distribution charge which breaks down into service/facilities charge (daily rate) and a system usage charge (per kWh). We also have a transmission charge (per kWh) and a balancing pool allocation charge (per kWh). The rates/history/changes are all publically available here: https://www.enmax.com/business/elect...ibution-tariff

    We have a rate rider, I have no clue WTF that is. Maybe someone can explain it.

    We also have a Local Access Fee, which is what City of Calgary arbitrarily charges in lieu of property taxes and other charges, basically a double dip. The rates are here: https://www.enmax.com/ForYourHomeSit...access-fee.pdf

    It's not really complicated how they're charging, but nobody knows WTF those charges are really for haha.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
    I have gone above and beyond what I should rightfully have to do to protect my good name

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiTempguy1 View Post
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    All I know is at my new place in the country, my delivery charges amounted to $60 and I used $20 in electricity. My rental unit has consistently cost ~$50/month since I first bought it, even with me paying the bill and renters getting carte blanche to do whatever the f*&k they want. It works out to about $15 in electricity per month, the rest are the charges.

    Fucking outrageous.
    Grab a cold one Temp, as EV's start to take over, electricity costs will skyrocket.

    BTW- What source will provide the massive increase in electric power needs? Well, the answer is fucking laughable.

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    Pretty sure we already have more than enough supply to meet load. Add in all the RE that's coming on board..... pull off coal, then many will convert to NG- so ya no supply issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    As others have said, ours isn't anything like this. We charge a combination of daily fixed rates and usage based rates. No peaks or anything.

    We have distribution charge which breaks down into service/facilities charge (daily rate) and a system usage charge (per kWh). We also have a transmission charge (per kWh) and a balancing pool allocation charge (per kWh). The rates/history/changes are all publically available here: https://www.enmax.com/business/elect...ibution-tariff

    We have a rate rider, I have no clue WTF that is. Maybe someone can explain it.

    We also have a Local Access Fee, which is what City of Calgary arbitrarily charges in lieu of property taxes and other charges, basically a double dip. The rates are here: https://www.enmax.com/ForYourHomeSit...access-fee.pdf

    It's not really complicated how they're charging, but nobody knows WTF those charges are really for haha.
    Rate riders are additional fees for basically whatever. There used to be a pension adjustment rate rider because ATCO's DB pension needed a top up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    It's not really complicated how they're charging, but nobody knows WTF those charges are really for haha.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert...ystem_Operator

    Conduct a fair and open competitive process to determine the successful proponent who will develop, design, build, finance, own, operate, and maintain identified major transmission infrastructure in Alberta.
    A lot of the fees goes here.

    And Unions. Even after privatization, unions still runs the show. That's how you get someone earning $180K running servers at Enmax.

    Even after the labor pool has mostly taken a 30% wage cut, they are still asking a 5%/year increase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
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    Even after the labor pool has mostly taken a 30% wage cut
    No it hasn't. O&G professionals have taken a 30% wage cut located in Edmonton and south of Edmonton. I can assure you, for a fact, tradesmen up north are still getting paid a lot of money (those that have jobs). I know a jman hd mechanic at KEARL who is earning $150k/year. A ticketed welder will run you shop rate of $100/h easily still.

    And no, its not unions either. 15% of workers in Alberta are unionized. Nice try though

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    That would be a cut. I knew mechanics that made $250K/year.

    Fuck I knew a few experienced guys from Scotland that made $500K/year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntan View Post
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    Fuck I knew a few experienced guys from Scotland that made $500K/year.
    Ya, ok When lead guys commissioning the DCS system for a plant are getting $300k/year, I'm sure some guy who wrenches on trucks for a living is getting $500k/year even back during the boom times. $250k/year, I could see if they worked a massive amount of OT, which isn't unreasonable at double time.

    I don't know what you do, but having been on all of the sites during the boom, for a ticketed/jman individual, $150k/year was around the going rate working 2on/2off or 1on/1off for base pay fresh hire. Then OT and perks on top.

    $150k/year base right now is not a cut with zero years at a company. But, I'm sure you know more than I do

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    If you want a real challenge, figure out how they determine the daily and monthly provider rates for natural gas in Alberta.

    http://www.gasalberta.com/gas-market/market-prices

    http://www.gasalberta.com/gas-market...tes-in-alberta

    Contango/backwardation along with sliding rates and subsidy teirs, pay extra or pay less for bulk consumption... I dare say that no one fully understands it.
    Last edited by ZenOps; 11-17-2017 at 06:26 PM.
    Cocoa $11,000 per ton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiTempguy1 View Post
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    Ya, ok When lead guys commissioning the DCS system for a plant are getting $300k/year, I'm sure some guy who wrenches on trucks for a living is getting $500k/year even back during the boom times. $250k/year, I could see if they worked a massive amount of OT, which isn't unreasonable at double time.

    I don't know what you do, but having been on all of the sites during the boom, for a ticketed/jman individual, $150k/year was around the going rate working 2on/2off or 1on/1off for base pay fresh hire. Then OT and perks on top.

    $150k/year base right now is not a cut with zero years at a company. But, I'm sure you know more than I do
    Blah blah blah. Yes, I do know more than you because I know way more people in the upper echelons of the business than you. People were simply being overpaid. Like I don’t think you even had an inkling of the gross salaries people were making. People in Calgary were pissed because any dunce willing to work in Ft McMurray was making double, triple what people here were. Sorry it pisses you off.

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    We do have some demand meters in Alberta.
    They are usually business or farm meters.
    Demand meters can effect your distribution and transmission charges
    Demand meters charge distribution cost based on the largest amount of demand for a 15 minute period but some farm demand meters are preset based on the KVA requested at the time the meter was set up.
    If its preset KVA then changing how you use electricity wont change your distribution transition fees.
    If its a true demand meter it can change but it often based on highest demand in last 12 mths so the change will take time to reduce costs

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