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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by A790 View Post
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    .

    Are 22% of Canada's population using their gun multiple times a week (or day)? No, and that's the point of my attack of said comparison.
    So what you are saying is that guns should be regulated less than vehicles as they are not used all the time?

    Huh, first social issue you and I have agreed on in a while. :P

    But the use of guns and cars isn't dramatically different. Both are tools used to do jobs, and both can be misused (in fact, cars are highly effective in things like terrorist attacks).

    So, regardless of who said what when, the point remains that a majority of gun deaths are either 1) By accident or 2) By people that are killing other lowlifes, which Im plenty alright by.

    If as much whining and hand wringing was spent over automotive deaths, a lot less people would die. A lot less innocent people, then comparative gun deaths. On top of that, driving isn't a right, while down there, owning a gun is.

    Funny how that works. And all stats support this. So your hatred of guns is at odds with what can easily, quickly, and reliably be done to reduce a larger amount of deaths. Why is that?

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    ...
    Last edited by Sugarphreak; 08-18-2019 at 01:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dj_patm View Post
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    Oh so it was only a gun accident at a school that almost killed two children. That's cool then.



    Weird. You mean like we should register cars and license people who drive cars, make sure they know what they're doing and are physically and mentally fit to be driving them? Enforce rules about modifying cars? Limit the manners in which they can be used?

    That does sound like a good idea.
    California (where this took place) already does that with firearms. They have gun control similar to ours.

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    I wonder how many 12 year olds drove a car to that school on the day that that 12 year old took a gun to school. And of the 12 year olds that did drive to that school that day, how many deliberately injured someone with the car they were driving.
    Will fuck off, again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedog View Post
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    I wonder how many 12 year olds drove a car to that school on the day that that 12 year old took a gun to school. And of the 12 year olds that did drive to that school that day, how many deliberately injured someone with the car they were driving.
    For someone who bitches a lot at people getting uppity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    I am pretty sure I read that not only was this ruled an accident, but the two people who got hurt did not have lasting injuries and are expected to make a full recovery.
    .

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    What you guys are doing with the gun vs car debate is creating a false equivalence. As if one can in any way be compared to the other. It's like someone saying "sure the Holocaust wasn't great, but look at how many people are killed by cancer, that's a REAL issue." One thing being worse than another doesn't make the original issue any less bad. Just a form of stupid misdirection and topic changing propaganda to stop discussing the original issue raised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feruk View Post
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    What you guys are doing with the gun vs car debate is creating a false equivalence. As if one can in any way be compared to the other. It's like someone saying "sure the Holocaust wasn't great, but look at how many people are killed by cancer, that's a REAL issue." One thing being worse than another doesn't make the original issue any less bad. Just a form of stupid misdirection and topic changing propaganda to stop discussing the original issue raised.
    My point exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarphreak View Post
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    Apparently 610,000 people died from heart disease in the US last year, and it is estimated that 50% of those could have been preventable. So every 3 years a population the size of Calgary dies from this.

    And how many kids got shot, 2? Hmmmmm

    Seems like there are bigger fish to fry out there.... or perhaps steam instead?
    good luck telling Americans to eat better

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feruk View Post
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    What you guys are doing with the gun vs car debate is creating a false equivalence. As if one can in any way be compared to the other. It's like someone saying "sure the Holocaust wasn't great, but look at how many people are killed by cancer, that's a REAL issue." One thing being worse than another doesn't make the original issue any less bad. Just a form of stupid misdirection and topic changing propaganda to stop discussing the original issue raised.
    No it isn't, what it does is highlight the true intentions of the people arguing against gun ownership.

    If there was any logic applied to the argument, clearly you would choose to fight for whatever saved the most lives if it was about people dying. Should people being killed by others shooting them be an issue? Absolutely. Should it be AS BIG of an issue as people being killed by others driving? Not in the slightest.

    The topic at hand was a biased, misreported incident that was a case (of all things), an accidental firing of a gun. It happened to be at a school. Not talking about gang-bangers killing each other, not talking about armed robberies. The whole original post is a misdirection

    And again, it raises the question, why are guns such a hotly debated topic when they don't kill the most? And when that time, money, and effort going into restricting someone's right, vs that same time/money/effort being put into restricting or making better someone's privilege. There is a disconnect on why people care so much about restricting guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarphreak View Post
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    Seems like there are bigger fish to fry out there.... or perhaps steam instead?
    Smooth! I like that!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiTempguy1 View Post
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    If there was any logic applied to the argument, clearly you would choose to fight for whatever saved the most lives if it was about people dying. Should people being killed by others shooting them be an issue? Absolutely. Should it be AS BIG of an issue as people being killed by others driving? Not in the slightest.
    There you go again with the false equivalence. You're comparing a transportation tool that is used by MOST ADULTS EVERY DAY to a tool whose primary purpose is to kill (and is rarely used). That doesn't even bring into account that most car deaths are accidents, whereas most gun deaths are not. You have to have some serious next level blinders on not to see the false equivalence here. If you want a fair comparison to gun deaths, you have to compare to just car deaths where there was an intent to run people over and kill them. When that happens, everyone goes crazy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feruk View Post
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    There you go again with the false equivalence. You're comparing a transportation tool that is used by MOST ADULTS EVERY DAY to a tool whose primary purpose is to kill (and is rarely used). That doesn't even bring into account that most car deaths are accidents, whereas most gun deaths are not. You have to have some serious next level blinders on not to see the false equivalence here. If you want a fair comparison to gun deaths, you have to compare to just car deaths where there was an intent to run people over and kill them. When that happens, everyone goes crazy!
    Actually, the vast majority of gun deaths are actually suicides, and quite frankly, if someone wants to take their own life, they will, gun or no gun. That is not a comment on false equivalencies however... Just a comment on the overall irrational fear everyone has in regards to gun deaths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feruk View Post
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    There you go again with the false equivalence. You're comparing a transportation tool that is used by MOST ADULTS EVERY DAY to a tool whose primary purpose is to kill (and is rarely used). That doesn't even bring into account that most car deaths are accidents, whereas most gun deaths are not. You have to have some serious next level blinders on not to see the false equivalence here. If you want a fair comparison to gun deaths, you have to compare to just car deaths where there was an intent to run people over and kill them. When that happens, everyone goes crazy!
    The overwhelming majority of gun deaths are suicides (over 60%), followed by homicides (around 80% of homicides involving a gun are gang related with weapons they would probably have regardless of the laws), and a distant third is accidents and "unexplained" incidents which are around 500-700 per year if I recall correctly.

    Also, I think that the amount of people who use or carry guns on a regular basis in the USA is a lot higher than you think, and there are tens of millions more firearms in the USA than there are cars so the chance of an incident happening are higher, yet incidents like this are far less common.

    Interesting topic nonetheless, I'd be interested in seeing more data on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feruk View Post
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    There you go again with the false equivalence. You're comparing a transportation tool that is used by MOST ADULTS EVERY DAY to a tool whose primary purpose is to kill (and is rarely used). That doesn't even bring into account that most car deaths are accidents, whereas most gun deaths are not. You have to have some serious next level blinders on not to see the false equivalence here. If you want a fair comparison to gun deaths, you have to compare to just car deaths where there was an intent to run people over and kill them. When that happens, everyone goes crazy!
    See how emotionally invested you are in this subject, so much so that you can't even be bothered to read the statistics about guns and gun violence?

    You still have failed to point out how it is false equivalence when so many people are killed with cars vs guns? If you aren't trying to prevent people's deaths, then what are you trying to solve exactly through legislation/regulation? Guns? As has been shown, making it legally more difficult to get guns (or have guns at all period) does not solve the issue of people dying. So you have something against guns themselves (an inanimate object). Gun deaths, in the grand scheme of things, are minuscule, and the large majority of them are suicides AND violent crimes among violent criminals.

    So again, what reasoning do you have for supporting your anti-gun stance? They kill people? Lots of things kill people. Oh, they are designed for killing? Weird, MOST guns don't actually kill people, so that argument doesn't hold water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tirebob View Post
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    Actually, the vast majority of gun deaths are actually suicides, and quite frankly, if someone wants to take their own life, they will, gun or no gun. That is not a comment on false equivalencies however... Just a comment on the overall irrational fear everyone has in regards to gun deaths.
    we’ll never know because we can’t ask them but I wonder how many gunshot suicides have a millisecond of “oh shit no I want to live” after they pull the trigger. There are lots of stories of people who try to overdose or gas themselves who figure it out and reverse course. That’s the problem with having instant death tools just lying around in copious quantities like they have in the US

    Realistically though the debate is kind of pointless, there’s already too many guns out there as is. Even if the federal government would put major restrictions on new guns, that just means people will pay more for old guns, of which there are billions that can either be sold or stolen. Anyone with dreams of the feds taking away guns would be better off channeling that energy towards more realistic goals, like better mental health care, jobs, ending the War on Drugs, etc. Shit they might as well wish for unicorns if they think there could be any sort of gun grab without complete civil war. The NRA puts out videos threatening to burn the country down when the idea of minor regulation gets brought up, nevermind losing the second amendment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonito View Post
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    That’s the problem with having instant death tools just lying around in copious quantities like they have in the US
    You say that like there aren't dozens of other ways to kill one's self instantly around us every day, such as jumping in front of a vehicle, bus, train, jumping off a bridge, kitchen knives, etc. etc. Also a gunshot isn't a guaranteed death either, even in the head. If the argument is that those things are exempt from the same scrutiny because they are generally accepted or commonly used items, in the USA guns are very commonly used every day and are far more plentiful than vehicles and other commonly used items that can hurt people if used irresponsibly. Also it seems like the goal of saving as many lives as possible is only the case when convenient or if the topic is gun related - who cares about all the other things we use every day that kill way more people.

    There are what, 300M guns in the USA? On an annual basis, that would mean ~0.004% of those guns are involved in non-suicide incidents every year assuming a different gun was used for each incident. Furthermore, 80% of that is gang violence, which is probably going to happen anyway with illegal weapons. If anything else in our society had a deadly incident rate that low, it would be instantly accepted without anyone batting an eye. A remarkably small number of guns in the USA are used irresponsibly compared to the amount that exist. The same cannot be said for things like vehicles, which are obviously generally accepted as part of most people's lives, but it's not a gun so nobody cares.

    I'm not arguing one way or the other, I think there are lots of problems in the USA stemming from a variety of sources, but I don't buy the argument that basically says it's OK if way more people die, as long as it's not by a gun.

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    Take cars away and everything would become unimaginabley worse. Take guns away and the biggest complaint would be that hunting became harder, while significantly improving things for potential shooting victims

    Neither is plausible, but stop pretending like it’s a valid comparison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonito View Post
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    Take cars away and everything would become unimaginabley worse. Take guns away and the biggest complaint would be that hunting became harder, while significantly improving things for potential shooting victims

    Neither is plausible, but stop pretending like it’s a valid comparison
    But taking cars away would save almost an infinitely larger number of lives... so whats your point? Because one thing is convenient and the other isn't, that's what you base your morality on?

    Oh wait... now that I think about it, that's exactly liberals stance on abortion. Huh, that explains their worldview quite succinctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiTempguy1 View Post
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    But taking cars away would save almost an infinitely larger number of lives... so whats your point? Because one thing is convenient and the other isn't, that's what you base your morality on?

    Oh wait... now that I think about it, that's exactly liberals stance on abortion. Huh, that explains their worldview quite succinctly.
    Without modern transportation countless people would die, it would essentially be pre-1700s again. It’s not a matter of “convenience” it’s basic reasoning

    But let’s say your understanding was true, it would still be obvious. Every moral we have is based on “convenience”. You don’t think there should be refugees here because they pose a possible threat. You’re trading their lives for Canadian lives. And you might be right, but you’re choosing convenience vs total number of lives saved

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonito View Post
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    Without modern transportation countless people would die, it would essentially be pre-1700s again. It’s not a matter of “convenience” it’s basic reasoning

    But let’s say your understanding was true, it would still be obvious. Every moral we have is based on “convenience”. You don’t think there should be refugees here because they pose a possible threat. You’re trading their lives for Canadian lives. And you might be right, but you’re choosing convenience vs total number of lives saved
    Some people are blinded by ideology. You make solid points but they are lost on those with their eyes closed.

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