The US of A Shooting Mega-Thread

[dj_patm]

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This is hilarious.

In addition to what skibum pointed out, just think about your suggestion for a moment. How many millions (or hundreds of millions?) of guns are you going to have to try and track down and take away from the american people. You think they can do that without a civil war happening?

Try this again, but use some critical thought for a moment - do you have a suggestion for a solution that is even remotely feasible?

It would be if there was an appetite for it from the populous. But they're clearly okay with kids getting shot at school on the regular.

Laugh away. "We already have too many guns so why would we try to ban them now". What a ridiculous argument. There's no solution where you get to keep your guns, no. Doesn't mean you should get to keep your guns.

[FraserB]

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Ban all but single action guns. All of them.

Worked well for Australia. Why not try it? Cause you absolutely need to have guns in your house?

Go to a shooting range if you need to get your jollys.

You can’t really roll Australia out as a “success” though. Prior to Port Arthur and the gun laws that resulted, firearm homicides were already on the way down and continued after. At the same time, there was no increase in firearms homicides once firearms ownership rates started to increase

[bjstare]

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It would be if there was an appetite for it from the populous. But they're clearly okay with kids getting shot at school on the regular.

Laugh away. "We already have too many guns so why would we try to ban them now". What a ridiculous argument. There's no solution where you get to keep your guns, no. Doesn't mean you should get to keep your guns.

It's not meant to be an argument for keeping guns, it's an argument for your solution being a non-starter. I never said "why should we ban them now"... the answer to that is obvious.

I'm not out here saying I have a solution, I'm just saying that you don't have one either. Ban guns is a great idea to solve this problem, except that it's nearly impossible to implement. Not to mention that banning them does little to impact those that want to obtain them illegally.

[Mitsu3000gt]

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It would be if there was an appetite for it from the populous. But they're clearly okay with kids getting shot at school on the regular.

You can't fall back on arguments like that because society is already fine with way more people (and kids) dying from other things we deem commonly acceptable day to day. In the USA, guns are part of their culture and commonly accepted. There are over 300M guns in the USA. Do you have any idea how many things would have to be banned if the goal was to prevent as many deaths as possible?

Not wanting to ban guns outright, and being OK with school shootings is about as far apart and unrelated as two things can possibly be - that is absolutely ridiculous. You will not find a single sane person who is pro-gun and condones school shootings - there is no relationship there.

The problem here was a mentally ill person was allowed to buy a gun despite warnings to the FBI, numerous red flags, and the individual literally telling people he was going to do it. This psychopath should not have even been allowed to own a kitchen knife, let alone a gun. If the person is determined enough, it will happen anyway, but putting more barriers in the way (proper background checks, waiting periods, etc.) has proven a reasonable method of prevention without infringing too much on the 99.99% of responsible owners. That is one area the USA could improve on for sure and it would likely make a real difference.

- - - Updated - - -

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You can’t really roll Australia out as a “success” though. Prior to Port Arthur and the gun laws that resulted, firearm homicides were already on the way down and continued after. At the same time, there was no increase in firearms homicides once firearms ownership rates started to increase

Firearm ownership and crime rate has no correlation in the USA either. They remain unrelated, at least based on all the data we have so far.

[TurboMedic]

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I have two suggestions to at least put us on the right path:

1) Limit the availability, or legality, of expanded magazines. You want a gun to defend yourself? Fine. But I would like to see these instances where a gun owner needed to use more than 5+ rounds in this scenario. I understand that loading magazines is a mind-numbing and time consuming exercise, but I would think that that inconvenience is worth it if it meant people weren't walking into movie theatres, malls and schools with 50+ rounds in a single magazine.

This is a bit of a disingenuous argument. Nearly any magazine that is round limited is done so by means of a screw, or a rivet, and can be returned to normal function with minimal effort. Now, to continue on with the killing people is illegal argument, the person willing to commit that act (and typically die, or kill themselves in the commission) will have no troubles or lose no sleep modifying those magazines to full capacity. There is a market and use for higher capacity magazines, and as such the manufacturers make them in standard sizes and reduce them by modifying them, that's just business. Its always so funny that anti-gun crowds always think that a rinky-dink law like a mag limit is going to sober second thought someone who is bound and determined to kill people, regardless of the means. As though the guy who wants to run a crowd of people with a stolen car is going to say "damn, I don't have a licence, I can't drive". Or the aircraft highjackers would say "I'm not multi engine rated, and I haven't ever flown a 737 before, I better not". Be realistic!

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2) Reverse the law that says that toy guns need to be painted bright colours, or need the red tip, so that they can't be confused with real guns, and make it illegal to have a gun that doesn't follow said law. Instead, mandate that all guns need to be painted in bright colours like neon green, pink or canary yellow.

You've probably seen me advocate for the the latter in the past. I think it's a win-win. The guns become easier to identify, thus cutting down on incidents where cops thought the perpetrator had a gun that turned out to be toy, like Tamir Rice. And the public can easier identify when someone is carrying a gun, which could appease the group in the pro-gun side that also wants open carry.

Guns don't come in one color already. And many that are carried are bright (think chrome, green grips, etc). I'm not sure there is a color of "human killer camo" that makes firearms hard to identify? But sure, I'll humor you and then remind you that any firearm can be painted with minimal effort. So once again, only laws that law abiding owners would have to conform to. Better stop selling Ghilli suits on Amazon too. Ban Cerakote. Lock down the spray paint (especially black and grey) at Canadian Tire. Build a registry for anyone who requests to buy some.

[Swank]

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Not to mention that banning them does little to impact those that want to obtain them illegally.

I think it's safe to say that if someone is willing open fire in public they probably aren't afraid of buying some black market guns.

[Mitsu3000gt]

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I think it's safe to say that if someone is willing open fire in public they probably aren't afraid of buying some black market guns.

This, or modifying legally restricted guns to be illegal (i.e. taking out magazine limiters, bump stocks, modifying for full auto, etc.)

[sabad66]

yes there will always be ways to get guns through black market if you're determined enough and have the funds.

but if you're a 17 year old high school kid, good luck getting an automatic assault rifle from the black market to shoot up your school...they would be lucky to find a basic pistol with a few rounds IF they even had the connections and cash (i assume black market guns cost more than retail)

[kertejud2]

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Try this again, but use some critical thought for a moment - do you have a suggestion for a solution that is even remotely feasible?

Give every student a gun.

That cripples the black market on guns through saturation, and arms as many good people as possible. So hopefully there are more of them then the bad people with guns and the problem will just fix itself. Though it will fix itself either way, really.

[Mitsu3000gt]

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yes there will always be ways to get guns through black market if you're determined enough and have the funds.

but if you're a 17 year old high school kid, good luck getting an automatic assault rifle from the black market to shoot up your school...they would be lucky to find a basic pistol with a few rounds IF they even had the connections and cash (i assume black market guns cost more than retail)

I dunno, if you know your life is over anyway right after the incident, a determined 17 year old could probably come up with a decent chunk of cash pretty fast. Obviously we know nothing about the black market or how easy it is to obtain an illegal gun like that but a legal AR-15 in the USA costs around $600 and a modern pistol around $450 - even at a significant premium, that isn't going to be a ton of cash especially with nothing but time to plan. It wouldn't likely be full auto (nobody seems to be getting or using those) but it probably wouldn't be too hard to buy something similar to what was used here if they weren't able to get it by any other legal means. The outcome also wouldn't have been significantly different if he had pistols instead, which I imagine would be the easiest to obtain. This was premeditated and there were signs he was planning it at least up to a year in advance - that is a lot of time to work out the details or find a way to steal what you need from someone else.

Again, the underlying problem is that the system did not prevent this person with a long, documented history of violence and mental illness from buying a gun and that is a major issue. To get a gun in Canada, you need references and multiple people to vouch for you via phone interviews - something like that would have at least prevented him from getting anything legally, and wouldn't infringe much on responsible owners. What seems to work in other countries is maximizing the amount of barriers between an individual and instant, legal gun ownership. As with most things, the responsible users are much more likely to jump through the hoops and are often supportive of anything that weeds out the bad apples spoiling it for everyone else - however in this particular case (Americans with their guns) I am sure it's not that simple, especially when you have a president literally revoking a bill that made it more difficult for the mentally ill to possess guns.

[Sentry]

Ban schools. No more school shootings.

[killramos]

Always a great thread. A+

Can’t wait until the next one!

[Xtrema]

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Ban schools. No more school shootings.

Next Republican leader right here.

[TurboMedic]

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yes there will always be ways to get guns through black market if you're determined enough and have the funds.

but if you're a 17 year old high school kid, good luck getting an automatic assault rifle from the black market to shoot up your school...they would be lucky to find a basic pistol with a few rounds IF they even had the connections and cash (i assume black market guns cost more than retail)

Is this just an assumption or anecdotal? If you've never attempted to obtain anything "black market", would you be able to tell us how hard it is? Or do you just think its hard because it sounds hard to do or you wouldn't know where to start? Because if its the latter, your assessment is baseless

[Seth1968]

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Ban schools. No more school shootings.

Nah, they'll still find a way to kill each other.

Ban kids and then everyday we'll party like it's 1699

[AndyL]

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Give every student a gun.

That cripples the black market on guns through saturation, and arms as many good people as possible. So hopefully there are more of them then the bad people with guns and the problem will just fix itself. Though it will fix itself either way, really.

Isn't the idea to keep guns away from the mentals like me? Not give them all a gun.

5round mags doesn't solve anything - they'll just walk in with 100mags, a commited murderer isn't going to mind loading 100 vs 30 to get the same net effect.

[kertejud2]

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Isn't the idea to keep guns away from the mentals like me? Not give them all a gun.

You'll either have one given to you, or you'll just get one on the black market. Might as well cut out the middle man and make your rampage as efficient as possible.

[Sentry]

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Next Republican leader right here.

Any legislation against firearms would be unconstitutional. It's the only way.

SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED

[sexualbanana]

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I just listened to a researched podcast this morning and one of the things they found was that the number of guns in the USA has zero correlation to crime rate, so with stats like that as one example, it's not hard to see how the debate is endless.

But is there a correlation between gun ownership and mass shootings? Conversely, is there any correlation between gun ownership and crime prevention/opposition?

[sexualbanana]

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Guns don't come in one color already. And many that are carried are bright (think chrome, green grips, etc). I'm not sure there is a color of "human killer camo" that makes firearms hard to identify? But sure, I'll humor you and then remind you that any firearm can be painted with minimal effort. So once again, only laws that law abiding owners would have to conform to. Better stop selling Ghilli suits on Amazon too. Ban Cerakote. Lock down the spray paint (especially black and grey) at Canadian Tire. Build a registry for anyone who requests to buy some.

But it's the same requirement for toy gun manufacturers, so why not put the onus on the gun manufacturer's themselves to make real firearms more easily identifiable? If the vast majority of gun owners are responsible, then they wouldn't go through the trouble of re-painting and modifying their guns.